Ableton is everywhere...

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codec_spurt wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:14 am People whoop on Ableton like it's a DJ or something!

Now we have programs like REAPER, mimicking its non-linear ability - https://www.helgoboss.org/projects/playtime/
It currently seems abondoned

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andypryce wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:52 pm
Reaper, Nerdy
Don't understand why Reaper is nerdy ?
Reaper is far more powerfull than Live.
I currently work on techno tracks project and quicly struggles with live limits : no option to split midi drum clips by note row, no ghost clips, no track manager, no events list, no mixer in arrange view, more clics to open a plugin or assign a CC, no possibility to undock stock plugins, dummy clips for automation, poor midi editing, automation doesn't follow notes move...
In my option Live is good for live sets with loops and push but not to finish a track. Tracks are finished in more conventionnal DAWs.

I have already tried several times Live but each time I feel frustrated by it's limitation.
Reaper is 60 $ and Live is 600 $ but is not 10 times better than Reaper !!!

here is a objective review about live https://www.admiralbumblebee.com/music/ ... Suite.html

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dupont wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:50 am
andypryce wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:52 pm
Reaper, Nerdy
Don't understand why Reaper is nerdy ?

In my option Live is good for live sets with loops and push but not to finish a track. Tracks are finished in more conventionnal DAWs.

I have already tried several times Live but each time I feel frustrated by it's limitation.
Reaper is 60 $ and Live is 600 $ but is not 10 times better than Reaper !!!
- Reaper is considered nerdy because arguably getting the best out of it requires a lot of tinkering.

- Yes! Some tracks are definitely finished in more conventional DAW. However, evidently many thousands of tracks are finished without ever leaving ‘Live’

- Your pricing comparison is a little unfair. Given that Reaper doesn’t come with the additional instruments and samplers etc. that come with Ableton, the better comparison would be with ‘Standard’. Also, if you are making a certain level of money from music, then Reaper costs quite a bit more.

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dupont wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:50 amhere is a objective review about live https://www.admiralbumblebee.com/music/ ... Suite.html
While he may be trying to be objective, it is still ultimately the subjective opinion/experience of one person :tu:

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the truth is, ableton users aren't respected by well seasons musicians, who all have learned it to the point of muscle memory and then moved on to a daw which can be used in the studio without distraction, but at home, so they feel welcomed by their own system.

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klaatugort wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:18 am the truth is, ableton users aren't respected by well seasons musicians, who all have learned it to the point of muscle memory and then moved on to a daw which can be used in the studio without distraction, but at home, so they feel welcomed by their own system.
:?: :?: :?:
Signatures are so early 2000s.

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dupont wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:50 am Reaper is far more powerfull than Live.
That’s so wrong to say.
I own Reaper, among loads of linear DAWs, and I can accomplish all my needs in Live and BWS way better than Reaper.
Powerful? You forgot the missing part of the equation: who’s using it and personal workflow. Power is manifested in results.
Pigments - Diva - Tal U-No-LX - Tal Sampler

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v1o wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:39 pm
apoclypse wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:19 pm
v1o wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:04 pm
Kinh wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:11 pm Do you have the sales stats in front of you to show Bitwig is even closely selling as much as Ableton?
DAW makers do not publish sales stats. The OP is talking about overall popularity when he says "Ableton is everywhere". So am I. In my opinion anyway Bitwig is also getting quite popular since v3.
Just looking at controller support alone. Ableton gets far more support from manufacturers than pretty much any other DAW. So that right there signifies the juggernaut that it is in the industry. Bitwig is no where near the same league in that respect. Hardware OEM don't make these decisions on a whim, so they must have sales numbers to back up their choice of supporting Ableton over other DAWs.

Take the Novation SL MK3. It literally works best in Ableton out of the box. The Logic support is meh. ProTools, Cubase, and S1 support is basically just HUI and Reason gets your standard control mappings for their instruments but no feedback on the hardware. Akai, Novation, among many others make controllers specifically for Ableton. The Akai Force and MPC will get Ableton support with no indication of support for any other DAW.

I'm saying this as a Bitwig user. It's frustrating to say the least to see Ableton get all the hardware support and we have to rely on one guy making scripts on his own time (DrivenByMoss).

Right now hardware makers are not seeing the sales numbers for Bitwig so they don't go out of there way to support it. I think Nektar is the only one with actual support and that's because they included a cut down version of Bitwig with their controllers at some point.

I've been avoiding Live 10 since I already own Bitwig but frankly it's getting really hard to keep supporting a DAW that has no real hardware support from the DAW maker or hardware manufacturers instead relying on unsupported user scripts to pick up the slack.
You could be right but I'm not so sure. Novation hardware traditionally has always had strong Ableton support. They even make Ableton Live specific controllers. It's quite likely that Novation just know their own user base and market very well. Nektar controllers for example have very strong Reason integration. Eucon & Icon controllers have strong Pro Tools integration.
At least for Eucon, they are owned by AVID so that's no surprise there. Novation may know their market but that also tells you something that a hardware OEM will concentrate more on one market. That means they are making money there and significantly so that they can pretty much ignore other markets. The same for Akai. Even if they do support other DAWs, Ableton support usually comes first and foremost.

Now there are a couple of factors as to why this is. Ofcourse marketshare is one, but also capability. Ableton makes it really easy for 3rd parties to integrate with their software. They have a well documented api that lets 3rd parties still create a custom experience for the user.

That being said that these OEMs would even go through the trouble of writing a script (and keeping it updated) at all speaks volume imo.
Studio One // Bitwig // Logic Pro X // Ableton 11 // Reason 11 // FLStudio // MPC // Force // Maschine

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FYI I have written and mixed several albums using Live ... this includes my own music as well as albums I've mixed commercially for others. Its the only DAW I need. I usually master in Sound Forge, but could use Live for mastering too if needed. YMMV

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Biscotto wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:00 pm
dupont wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:50 am Reaper is far more powerfull than Live.
That’s so wrong to say.
I own Reaper, among loads of linear DAWs, and I can accomplish all my needs in Live and BWS way better than Reaper.
Powerful? You forgot the missing part of the equation: who’s using it and personal workflow. Power is manifested in results.
Reaper is more powerful and suitable for mastering and accurate for midi editing, this is not only my opinion.
Which side of Ableton is more powerfull than Reaper else than session view (which I don't use) ?

https://www.admiralbumblebee.com/music/ ... Suite.html

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dupont wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:26 pm
Biscotto wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:00 pm
dupont wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:50 am Reaper is far more powerfull than Live.
That’s so wrong to say.
I own Reaper, among loads of linear DAWs, and I can accomplish all my needs in Live and BWS way better than Reaper.
Powerful? You forgot the missing part of the equation: who’s using it and personal workflow. Power is manifested in results.
Reaper is more powerful and suitable for mastering and accurate for midi editing, this is not only my opinion.
Which side of Ableton is more powerfull than Reaper else than session view (which I don't use) ?

https://www.admiralbumblebee.com/music/ ... Suite.html
Still missing the whole point. Not surprised.
Pigments - Diva - Tal U-No-LX - Tal Sampler

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Powerful? Feature-laden, yes, Reaper. But Live is powerful in that it lets me get stuff done quickly without wading through a ton of stuff I don't need. No slam on Reaper, but it's not what I need so I don't consider it more powerful. If you love Reaper and it's right for you, more power. Pun intended.

But why this incessant my dad can beat up your dad chatter all over the place? Why did I bother to write this? Questions...

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dupont wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:50 am here is a objective review about live https://www.admiralbumblebee.com/music/ ... Suite.html

That's not an "objective review" about Live.

In fact, the entire site is not objective, in any way, about any of the DAWs mentioned.

The methodology is not objective, the writing is not objective, the way he stealth-edits posts is not objective, even the picture he chooses are not objective.

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jonljacobi wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:02 pm But why this incessant my dad can beat up your dad chatter all over the place?
Frankie Boyle wrote:well, my gay dad will f**k your dad in the arse, and your dad will enjoy it.
:clown:

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dupont wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:26 pm
Biscotto wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:00 pm
dupont wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:50 am Reaper is far more powerfull than Live.
That’s so wrong to say.
I own Reaper, among loads of linear DAWs, and I can accomplish all my needs in Live and BWS way better than Reaper.
Powerful? You forgot the missing part of the equation: who’s using it and personal workflow. Power is manifested in results.
Reaper is more powerful and suitable for mastering and accurate for midi editing, this is not only my opinion.
Which side of Ableton is more powerfull than Reaper else than session view (which I don't use) ?

https://www.admiralbumblebee.com/music/ ... Suite.html
"More powerful"? This ain't Top-Trumps. It is irrelevant how much power something has if the end-user only has a need for a small sub-set of features. In fact, conversely, it is often seen that such 'everything but the kitchen sink' software applications can suffer from 'bloat' and a lack of focus.

Ultimately, all DAW are just tools, and everybody will have a specific workflow that will click with one of those tools. It's easy to make sweeping generalisations about "well seasoned musicians" (Yes, I'm aware it wasn't you who said that), but you might be surprised at the 'type' of musician that finds a good home in 'Live' :tu:

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