OSX Catalina vs OpenGL vs ProTools 10

[Ju2999]

I think opengl will be dropped as soon as the first arm based Mac will appear. Maybe interesting detail: ios at least supports open gl es (and already runs in arm). Maybe they will at least provide open gl es also for Mac OS at least? But better don't count on Apple, they will even stamp over your dead body.

[omiroad]

Without developers Apple would be nothing, but they can afford to treat them like dirt as long as there's money to be made for the devs who jump through all of the hoops anyway. Only if the userbase moves away things would change.

[MeldaProduction]

Absolutely true... Btw they plan ARM Macs?? C'mon... why??? That will be yet another fun , big endian I assume... Apple really deserves to be abandoned... Imagine how much work we could do if we wouldn't spend our short lives fixing what these idiots mess up?

[Hanz Meyzer]

Apple plans the totalitarian (num-)lock-in for all "customers". If the cpu/gpu also comes from Apple, they actually can control everything. A apple user then shall pay monopolist's prices for repair, hardware, even normal capabilities. It is the wet dream of Tim Cook, and the biggest shareholders of Apple. The transparent, dependent, sheep-like subscription-paying customer. Paying always for simple access. Same goes for the developers.

Actually maybe they also see the end of CISC coming in the future, I don't know.

Maybe Apple actually is right about their customers, just look at these braindead hipsters. Their common user is as dumb as the average windows user minus any idea about technics (the windows user wouldn't survive without basic knowledge). They buy these crap machines because status symbolism and because it can bend like a paper, not even because macos used to be the best OS simply - those times are over. Apple also doesn't give a shit about their own OS anymore either.

[MeldaProduction]

Apple plans the totalitarian (num-)lock-in for all "customers". If the cpu/gpu also comes from Apple, they actually can control everything. A apple user then shall pay monopolist's prices for repair, hardware, even normal capabilities. It is the wet dream of Tim Cook, and the biggest shareholders of Apple. The transparent, dependent, sheep-like subscription-paying customer. Paying always for simple access. Same goes for the developers.

Actually maybe they also see the end of CISC coming in the future, I don't know.

Maybe Apple actually is right about their customers, just look at these braindead hipsters. Their common user is as dumb as the average windows user minus any idea about technics (the windows user wouldn't survive without basic knowledge). They buy these crap machines because status symbolism and because it can bend like a paper, not even because macos used to be the best OS simply - those times are over. Apple also doesn't give a shit about their own OS anymore either.

While this is a bit extreme, I tend to agree . The thing, is I don't care about the hipsters changing their iphones, ipads and macvbooks every year (except for the effect on nature ), if they want to spend so much money on a "status symbol", so be it, I don't care. But we have to create software for it and if they come with a RISC CPU, I think the audio market situation may be in a very odd situation, perhaps that would be the end of professional audio on OSX finally . I can hardly imagine RISC would be the solution these days with the physical clock limitations.

Anyways good point with the Cook's wet dream . I didn't realized that... holy crap, that's going to be a nightmare

[telecode]

It will. The problem is stubborn Apple users will blame app/plugin devs for Apple mistakes as usual. But yes it would be interesting if we would form alliances and globally stop supporting Apple forcing them to change attitude or users to switch to Windows (which would be better anyways) . But we would need the big players...

I don't think so. Just place a clear notice that you do not support OS X *.x (or whatever the version number on the new OS X is). Maybe put something in the installer that prevents installation on the newer OS X with a message clearly stating that version of OS X is not supported.

I am an OS X user for my music studio and I don't upgrade. I take a very conservative, if it ain't broke don't fix it stance. I don't think I am rare and I think there are a lot of users like me. I only recently updated because of a bunch of stupid python library requirements that NI enforced which I wasn't able to hack my way around anymore and hosed my system. But even with the upgrade, I am still a few versions behind of where OS X is at present.

[Forgotten]

Maybe Apple actually is right about their customers, just look at these braindead hipsters.

While this is a bit extreme, I tend to agree

You agree that some of your customers are brain dead because of the OS they choose to use?

Nice...

[MeldaProduction]

Maybe Apple actually is right about their customers, just look at these braindead hipsters.

While this is a bit extreme, I tend to agree

You agree that some of your customers are brain dead because of the OS they choose to use?

Nice...

Did you actually read the post or you are just taking the classic Apple-defender stance for sport?

[MeldaProduction]

It will. The problem is stubborn Apple users will blame app/plugin devs for Apple mistakes as usual. But yes it would be interesting if we would form alliances and globally stop supporting Apple forcing them to change attitude or users to switch to Windows (which would be better anyways) . But we would need the big players...

I don't think so. Just place a clear notice that you do not support OS X *.x (or whatever the version number on the new OS X is). Maybe put something in the installer that prevents installation on the newer OS X with a message clearly stating that version of OS X is not supported.

I am an OS X user for my music studio and I don't upgrade. I take a very conservative, if it ain't broke don't fix it stance. I don't think I am rare and I think there are a lot of users like me. I only recently updated because of a bunch of stupid python library requirements that NI enforced which I wasn't able to hack my way around anymore and hosed my system. But even with the upgrade, I am still a few versions behind of where OS X is at present.

Unfortunately it's not that simple. See, you may do it, but many others update immediately. Then you have the customers, who buy a new computer with this crap preinstalled and want to open old projects... It's either "the whole audio community" or nobody.

[Forgotten]

Maybe Apple actually is right about their customers, just look at these braindead hipsters.

While this is a bit extreme, I tend to agree

You agree that some of your customers are brain dead because of the OS they choose to use?

Nice...

Did you actually read the post or you are just taking the classic Apple-defender stance for sport?

“classic Apple-defender”

I guess you don’t really care to consider reactions from Apple users who did read the entire post, and noticed your apparent distaste for their choices.

Remind me not to ever invest in your products again.

[MeldaProduction]

Don't be surprised, you picked part of a post who you like (in your case dislike) and deduced what I'm thinking about. That's what "Apple defenders" do. Did you ever think why is it so that so many people criticize Apple for pretty much everything from prices to attitude and there's pretty much no criticism on Windows? That's because they don't take everything personally.

Anyways where you put your money is certainly up to you!

( btw. this whole topic is about solving an issue cause by Apple treating their precious developers, which which they would be nothing, like pile of shit )

[telecode]

It will. The problem is stubborn Apple users will blame app/plugin devs for Apple mistakes as usual. But yes it would be interesting if we would form alliances and globally stop supporting Apple forcing them to change attitude or users to switch to Windows (which would be better anyways) . But we would need the big players...

I don't think so. Just place a clear notice that you do not support OS X *.x (or whatever the version number on the new OS X is). Maybe put something in the installer that prevents installation on the newer OS X with a message clearly stating that version of OS X is not supported.

I am an OS X user for my music studio and I don't upgrade. I take a very conservative, if it ain't broke don't fix it stance. I don't think I am rare and I think there are a lot of users like me. I only recently updated because of a bunch of stupid python library requirements that NI enforced which I wasn't able to hack my way around anymore and hosed my system. But even with the upgrade, I am still a few versions behind of where OS X is at present.

Unfortunately it's not that simple. See, you may do it, but many others update immediately. Then you have the customers, who buy a new computer with this crap preinstalled and want to open old projects... It's either "the whole audio community" or nobody.

I guess you need to know how large is your OS X customer base.

Speaking as an enterprise IT guy (which I do for a living) COTS applications have installation requirements. It is understood that if you want to use the application, you need to have the hardware and software requirements to run it. If I want to use IBM's backup software X and it clearly state its supported up to RHEL 6 but my environment is RHEL 7 and 8, I have to look elsewhere.

I guess you need to know how large the OS X customer base is and how worthwhile or profitable it is to invest resources supporting it. If the majority are Windows users, maybe cut loses until the OS X user base gets bigger.

I am on a Image Line FL beta for OS X and constantly dealing with their devs and submitting my crash logs and support tickets -- I dont go bashing their product because it crashes on my OS X setup. Its understood that its new feature and in beta for OS X support and we are all waiting for the growing pains to subside. )

[MeldaProduction]

Hehe that's the thing, OSX takes like 38% according to my stats, so it's not exactly possible to just ditch it. It would be possible to say "no catalina" though. But who knows, maybe it won't be that bad. But you know, the way Apple escalated recently it seems like they really don't care about music industry, they may not even know about that except for the guy who develops Logic . So if they trash OpenGL, then switch to RISC, and who knows what else they think about to earn more money, we may get into the point where it won't be feasible/possible to support them...We'll see, dark future with Apple

[mgw38]

Did you actually read the post or you are just taking the classic Apple-defender stance for sport?

“classic Apple-defender”

I guess you don’t really care to consider reactions from Apple users who did read the entire post, and noticed your apparent distaste for their choices.

Remind me not to ever invest in your products again.

Yes, for me this thread was also eye opening.

It is not as much the fact that he has issues with Apple's strategic choices. I think that is perfectly fine. The problem is the direct insult to the people who use their products for whatever reason.

If you tell me that the depreciation of OpenGL is a poor strategic choice that puts a lot of pressure on developers I can take that as a valid argument. I do understand your frustration about this to some extent.

But if you tell me that I am an idiot for buying products from a company that depreciates OpenGL you have lost me. That is an incredibly unprofessional behavior that lets me question everything you do. There is just no way I can trust a company that acts that way.

Btw, I started my career as a university researcher/professor in computer graphics 30 years ago. Imho, the depreciation of OpenGL is long overdue. At its core it is almost half a century old. And that RISC vs CISC discussion is outdated as well.

[MeldaProduction]

But if you tell me that I am an idiot for buying products from a company that depreciates OpenGL you have lost me.

Never said that. But I said that Apple is full of idiots and I stand by it. "Strategic choice" - nonsense. Strategic choice is to support developers, Apple does the opposite.

Imho, the depreciation of OpenGL is long overdue.

Of course OpenGL sort of sucks, but we still need to support it, otherwise half of the software stops working. And supporting it may for example mean that Apple would make a layer on top of Metal (if they love it so much), that would emulate OpenGL. Instead they say "f*** you developers, you do that". And they do that over and over again. They always design some crap, realize it's a crap in a few years, so they deprecate it and start over and we are ordered to follow...

And that RISC vs CISC discussion is outdated as well.

Hmmm, now this one intrigues me - are you saying that RISC is a good choice now? If so, why?