Tone2 I2 vs Trueno Analog

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
User avatar
LeVzi
KVRAF
1990 posts since 8 Jul, 2008 from UK

Post Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:35 pm

Igro wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:39 am
Electra, Rayblaster and so on. They all have this issue. Try harder to fix this. Tone2 synths are the ony one suffering from this...
No they don't , seriously have a day off, talking utter ****
Forward ever, Backward never

chk071
KVRAF
21544 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: Tone2 I2 vs Trueno Analog

Post Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:56 pm

BONES wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:21 pm
Let's not forget that Icarus is twice the price of Trueno
No?... Icarus is exactly the same price as Trueno. Which probably is why the OP compared these otherwise completely different synths.

AnX
KVRAF
5227 posts since 17 Nov, 2015

Re: Tone2 I2 vs Trueno Analog

Post Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:23 pm

does Trueno phone home or delete files on your pc?

:hihi:

User avatar
Igro
KVRAF
4091 posts since 26 Apr, 2007 from Noosphere

Re: Tone2 I2 vs Trueno Analog

Post Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:28 pm

LeVzi wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:35 pm
Igro wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:39 am
Electra, Rayblaster and so on. They all have this issue. Try harder to fix this. Tone2 synths are the ony one suffering from this...
No they don't , seriously have a day off, talking utter ****
Read the following post (put the glasses too)

SLiC
KVRAF
3836 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Re: Tone2 I2 vs Trueno Analog

Post Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:44 pm

AnX wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:23 pm
does Trueno phone home or delete files on your pc?

:hihi:
No, but the Truendo it is a hardware dongles, you can only run one instance and does introduce significant latency.

Personally Never had any problems with Tone2 copy protection, I find them friendly responsive developers who make great synths.
i7 Win 10 PC+ Surface, BWS, StudioOne 4, Cubase10, Live9, X32 Desk. , DM12, P8, Virus TI, Syst1m, 500hp Eurorack, Elektron A4, RYTM, OT, Heat, Digitone, Deluge, MPC Live, OP-Z, Mother+DFAM, Drums, Guitars, Basses and Amps

User avatar
BONES
GRRRRRRR!
8640 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Tone2 I2 vs Trueno Analog

Post Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:00 am

Trueno does not introduce "significant latency" at all. It is every bit as playable as any VSTi or hardware synth.
chk071 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:56 pm
No?... Icarus is exactly the same price as Trueno. Which probably is why the OP compared these otherwise completely different synths.
Really? When did $199 become the same as $99? Even if you can't get a deal, Trueno is still only $149 at full price. One of the really good things about hardware is you can always get a deal.
NOVAkILL 4.0 : Dell G7 17 (Core i7, 8GB RAM, Win10), Zoom U24, Cubase, DUNE, Hive, Thorn, TRK-01, Equator, Substance, Arcsyn, Synthmaster One, Aparillo, Trueno, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno, Skulpt, Craft 2

chk071
KVRAF
21544 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: Tone2 I2 vs Trueno Analog

Post Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:10 am

Icarus is 149 € here. Trueno is 159 € here (Amazon DE). :shrug:

User avatar
Distorted Horizon
KVRAF
2597 posts since 17 Jan, 2017 from Planet of cats

Re: Tone2 I2 vs Trueno Analog

Post Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:11 am

SLiC wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:44 pm
the Truendo
A new synth we're not aware of? 8)

SLiC
KVRAF
3836 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Re: Tone2 I2 vs Trueno Analog

Post Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:18 pm

BONES wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:00 am
Trueno does not introduce "significant latency" at all. It is every bit as playable as any VSTi or hardware synth.
Sub 10ms? Anything over 25ms I consider significant (but not always unusable)

I Use quite a bit of elektron gear with overbridge, it’s playable but the latency is quite high.
i7 Win 10 PC+ Surface, BWS, StudioOne 4, Cubase10, Live9, X32 Desk. , DM12, P8, Virus TI, Syst1m, 500hp Eurorack, Elektron A4, RYTM, OT, Heat, Digitone, Deluge, MPC Live, OP-Z, Mother+DFAM, Drums, Guitars, Basses and Amps

User avatar
aciddose
KVRAF
12274 posts since 7 Dec, 2004

Re: Tone2 I2 vs Trueno Analog

Post Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:21 pm

Distorted Horizon wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:11 am
A new synth we're not aware of? 8)
The video game console for kids with a cardboard box instead of a TV: Pretendo 64!

"Imma be Mario and ur my little brother so you hafta be Luigi!"
"No way! Luigi suckssssssssssss! I'm Ash Ketchum!"
"*sigh* ... fine."
Image
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.

User avatar
aciddose
KVRAF
12274 posts since 7 Dec, 2004

Re: Tone2 I2 vs Trueno Analog

Post Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:59 pm

chk071 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:50 am
perfumer wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:00 am
Caine123 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:54 am
proof. Screens, videos and or sound examples.
+1

Come on, Igro, you're making a bold statement. Back it up!
If you care for some counter proof, here's 2 pictures of Icarus, from the amp decay and release stage, each set to about 2 seconds.
...
Nothing out of the ordinary there, IMO. I think Igro just has a pretty rusty axe to grind.
Actually to get a clear impression you need to record the signal as floating point and then convert it to a continuous line by measuring the peak over a time window (such as 5 ms, playing a 1 KHz sine = 1 ms per cycle), then take that perfect piecewise sampled curve and convert it to a decibel range after you approximate the cutoff/silence point. For example given -80 dB cutoff, you'd convert to a range like -90 dB to -0 dB.

This correct procedure will produce a perfectly straight line (for an exponential decay like a capacitor) leading from 0 dB to the cutoff point, where you'll clearly see the abrupt end where it jumps to zero.

For example, decay to -90 dB:
Image
Linearized (in deciBels):
Image
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.

chk071
KVRAF
21544 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: Tone2 I2 vs Trueno Analog

Post Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:03 pm

Feel free to do it with Icarus, or another Tone2 synth. :tu:

User avatar
aciddose
KVRAF
12274 posts since 7 Dec, 2004

Re: Tone2 I2 vs Trueno Analog

Post Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:16 pm

Send the .flac (for integer resolution, 16 bit = ~96 dB and 24 bit = ~144 dB) or a 7zip compressed floating point RIFF wave (.wav) file for max resolution.

I can process it from that point. Just make sure you record several seconds after you think the fade has ended... it's easier if you use a volume meter in decibels so you can see the fade. A proper exponential decay will look linear on a meter in decibels. You can possibly use the meters in your host for this by setting them to a proper depth (like -100 dB floor, -20 dB ticks) and observe where the envelope ends.

In Xhip I use -80 dB and other synthesizers I've used similar values. In a true analog synth there is a similar "sudden cut" to the envelopes and anyone who tells you otherwise is full of shit. The VCA is rarely perfectly linear (the diode curve exponential applies) nor are the buffers used to provide the envelope signal. This is why you'll often see full on high quality opamps used for envelopes in modulars and synthesizers... because without them it isn't possible for the envelope to be buffered fully... it needs to be able to "decay to negative" because cutting the envelope at zero volts would create the sudden cuts.

The typical OTAs used (ca3080, lm13xxx) aren't very linear below -80 dB though anyway, so it's a moot point to fuss over getting anything better.

In software you need a definite "end" for a voice to be able to stop processing it. Unlike in full analogs we can't run 100% of the voices 100% of the time... or the CPU use would be ridiculous. So we define "-80 dB is OFF" and kill all processing for the voice at that point. Otherwise there is no practical way you'd be able to run all the poly synths you run at the same time, you'd have 1000s of voices which no existing consumer CPU could ever manage.

Maybe in some more years with centa-core processors or something, but at the moment eight cores just isn't enough. I had hoped the GPU supercomputer chips would be designed in a way that would facilitate using them for DSP processing, but sadly most useful DSP is extremely linear and requires sequential rather than parallel processing.
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.

User avatar
aciddose
KVRAF
12274 posts since 7 Dec, 2004

Re: Tone2 I2 vs Trueno Analog

Post Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:22 pm

With very low latency and extensive feature sets in GPU cores, it may one day be possible to process a whole synth voice on a single core and then add minimal latency to mix them all together.

That's sort-of almost kinda possible today, but the latency is huge since 60 FPS = 16.666 ms, which is already considered way too high. So doing processing on most GPUs where you need to buffer into a texture or whatever then mix (compute the sum of a region of the texture using a filter kernel) gives you latency in multiples of some fairly high number of ms like 8 or 16...

The efficiency of these chips for processing the graphical tasks they were designed to handle optimally is contrary to minimal latency "real time" DSP... but I'm still hoping we'll get there eventually!
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.

User avatar
BONES
GRRRRRRR!
8640 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Tone2 I2 vs Trueno Analog

Post Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:59 pm

SLiC wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:18 pm
Sub 10ms? Anything over 25ms I consider significant (but not always unusable)
No idea, really, I just play it from my Seaboard Block and it works. Given that 25ms in not unheard of in hardware, it's really not significant.
I Use quite a bit of elektron gear with overbridge, it’s playable but the latency is quite high.
Which should tell you that looking at latency values doesn't matter. People obsess over it but, unless there is a problem, I just use whatever the default set-up is for whichever device I am using.
NOVAkILL 4.0 : Dell G7 17 (Core i7, 8GB RAM, Win10), Zoom U24, Cubase, DUNE, Hive, Thorn, TRK-01, Equator, Substance, Arcsyn, Synthmaster One, Aparillo, Trueno, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno, Skulpt, Craft 2

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