Available now: Tone2 Icarus2.5 - Wavetable Workstation

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metaside wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:31 pm
Sampleconstruct wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:11 pm For me the main problem with MPE is that people playing it seem to believe that expressivness means to put a lot of vibrato on every note they play by shaking their fingers wildly on the seaboard. The same counts for continuously sliding notes up and down, it just sounds overambitious and fake to me, nothing I would want in my music.
That's not a problem with MPE, but a matter of taste and skills. You can literally do any expressive playing you like with MPE. Just put some time in, like you would do with any real instrument. It needs more practise than a trigger-button thing for sure ;)
Exactly, very poor argument.
This is really a cool video by the way, as well as the other ones he did using Serum as a synth. I could listen to them for hours.. :)

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Well, bring it on, convince me with some examples and I'll admit to be wrong and prejudiced in case I'll hear something convincing.

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And the video posted one page back is the best example for the fake-expressiveness I was talking about.

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pdxindy wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:33 pm
JunSev wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:39 pm
bmanic wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:16 pm How many mod matrix slots does Icarus 2 have? I still find the amount of slots in most Tone2 synths extremely limiting and down right frustrating. Don't get me wrong, I love my Electra X but I very quickly run out of modulation slots when trying to build nuanced patches that have small variations in sound and playing from a keyboard. A simple velocity to mod slot that modulates another mod slot scenario very quickly eats up all the slots.
I would like to have more matrix slots than what Icarus 1.6 has right now too, macro knobs, and the possibility to add more effects than just 3; in this regard almost all wavetables synths in the market have more capacity, but there is not mention of any of this in the first page of this thread for Icarus 2, hope Markus have this planned and is on it.

Otherwise I don't know if I will upgrade in the official release. I like the rework of the gui and the new MSEGs but still (at least for me), it doesn't looks that great in terms of capacity to be a paid upgrade yet if these aspects has been not addressed.
There are 18 Matrix slots in Icarus as is. Plus there are a number of hardwired modulations which don't need the Maxtrix. I wouldn't call that extremely limiting. Of course I'm not against more, but most of the time that is enough for me. My main complaint is having 3 tabs for the Matrix.

It would also be sweet to have a 'via' option... which would make the existing number of slots go farther.
You're right, that is like good enough but if the capacity were bigger would be better at least in some cases (yeah no always but sometimes), a lot of Wavetables synths have more capacity in that regard with around 32 or something matrix slots.

Just to add that the need for some macros in Icarus has been present from the beginning and the official release, the only macro (at least that appears in the main page of this thread) is using the moodweel; Icarus doesn't have dedicated macros, again behind many others WT synths in this regard; would be nice to have at least 3 or 4 macros for specific functions while creating patches. So as results more matrix slots would be even more useful too.

Also now with the new skin there shouldn't be issues adding more effects, is only possible to use 3 dedicated effects (with the previous icarus 1.6 was like that, i don't know with v2), that's good but it could be better, again many of the WT synths in the market are offering more capacity in that regard. That's why I hope for more possibilities and capabilities in Icarus 2
Last edited by JunSev on Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JunSev wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:00 pm
pdxindy wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:33 pm
JunSev wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:39 pm
bmanic wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:16 pm How many mod matrix slots does Icarus 2 have? I still find the amount of slots in most Tone2 synths extremely limiting and down right frustrating. Don't get me wrong, I love my Electra X but I very quickly run out of modulation slots when trying to build nuanced patches that have small variations in sound and playing from a keyboard. A simple velocity to mod slot that modulates another mod slot scenario very quickly eats up all the slots.
I would like to have more matrix slots than what Icarus 1.6 has right now too, macro knobs, and the possibility to add more effects than just 3; in this regard almost all wavetables synths in the market have more capacity, but there is not mention of any of this in the first page of this thread for Icarus 2, hope Markus have this planned and is on it.

Otherwise I don't know if I will upgrade in the official release. I like the rework of the gui and the new MSEGs but still (at least for me), it doesn't looks that great in terms of capacity to be a paid upgrade yet if these aspects has been not addressed.
There are 18 Matrix slots in Icarus as is. Plus there are a number of hardwired modulations which don't need the Maxtrix. I wouldn't call that extremely limiting. Of course I'm not against more, but most of the time that is enough for me. My main complaint is having 3 tabs for the Matrix.

It would also be sweet to have a 'via' option... which would make the existing number of slots go farther.
You're right, that is like good enough but if the capacity were bigger would be better at least in some cases (yeah no always but sometimes), a lot of Wavetables synths have more capacity in that regard with around 32 or something matrix slots.

Just to add that the need for some macros in Icarus has been present from the beginning and the official release, the only macro (at least that appears in the main page of this thread) is using the moodweel; Icarus doesn't have dedicated macros, again behind many others WT synths in this regard; would be nice to have at least 3 or 4 macros for specific functions while creating patches. So as results more matrix slots would be even more useful too.

Also now with the new skin there shouldn't be issues adding more effects, is only possible to use 3 dedicated effects, that's good but it could be better, again many of the WT synths in the market are offering more capacity in that regard. That's why I hope for more possibilities and capabilities in Icarus 2
Just out of curiosity, I would really love to know how many people actually use the build-in effects instead of using external ones. As for me, I always turn reverb and delay off if they are active and use the ones I have in my track insert or send. But I have to admit that the Icarus multi tap delay is really excellent and I sometimes use it to add some dark atmospheric color.

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Sampleconstruct wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:49 pm Well, bring it on, convince me with some examples and I'll admit to be wrong and prejudiced in case I'll hear something convincing.
No idea what your point is tbh. Even if there was not a single musician capable of producing something you would like (and explicitly state that you like it), the possibilities are unlimited and it's just a matter of current skill distribution, training traditions and the focus of musicians you would think of as talented...

And why would I post more videos just for you to give your obviously biased thumbs down? ;)

To me at least, it is really obvious that it is more easy and opens up more possibilties to bring expressiveness in with just one finger instead of using a second hand and I see absolutely zero worth in this whole argument to be honest. If you are honest, what would you recommend to a musician starting out? Learn to play expressively with your second hand on mod- and pitchwheels or get MPE? There is no real argument apart from sunk costs of experienced musicians.
Some music with visuals and mixed tutorials related to game dev and sound design: https://www.youtube.com/@MetasideOfficial

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Via or sub modulator would be cool, especially once mpe is included, since you often want to bring on a modulator like an lfo via an mpe expression.

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Sampleconstruct wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:11 pm For me the main problem with MPE is that people playing it seem to believe that expressivness means to put a lot of vibrato on every note they play by shaking their fingers wildly on the seaboard. The same counts for continuously sliding notes up and down, it just sounds overambitious and fake to me, nothing I would want in my music.
I guess you also wouldn't like a violin, cello, slide guitar, trumpet, theramin or many many other instruments in your music either?

I see nothing fake about the expression in performances like this, only things you just can't do on a keyboard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4ACZflVPPY&t=89s

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Ok, I'll buy a seaboard tomorrow and see if I'm actually biased. It's all about manirisms, like opera singers who can't sing a straight note because they will always produce a vibrato with a range of 1+ semitone.

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TBH, i can see the point. The kind of "add a vibrato to every note" stuff can quickly get boring. I guess it's more about taste than anything else.

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Sampleconstruct wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:18 pm Ok, I'll buy a seaboard tomorrow and see if I'm actually biased. It's all about manirisms, like opera singers who can't sing a straight note because they will always produce a vibrato with a range of 1+ semitone.
I completely get that point since I rarely like that, too. I'm sure MPE has a few less advantages for someone used to mod- and pitchwheels, but I still can't imagine that you will not like it after a while. And at least the polyphonic expressiveness should still be interesting!
Some music with visuals and mixed tutorials related to game dev and sound design: https://www.youtube.com/@MetasideOfficial

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a lot depends, too, on what kind of music you make. i make (mostly) pop/hiphop-oriented music, and don't need it. i've tried the seaboard, and (for me) it's overkill; i layer just enough synths that i need simplicity with each part, and this seems best for nuances.

having said that, as a player... it's a blast.

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Sampleconstruct wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:11 pm For me the main problem with MPE is that people playing it seem to believe that expressivness means to put a lot of vibrato on every note they play by shaking their fingers wildly on the seaboard. The same counts for continuously sliding notes up and down, it just sounds overambitious and fake to me, nothing I would want in my music.
I'm glad somebody said it lol....but its like anything else in life....if someone keeps telling you that is the main advantage of something, once you get it you cant stop yourself from using it....otherwise it feels like a waste.....like the guys who never drove stick before and then get a performance car, and are constantly gearin down for no reason and riding the clutch, taking every corner like they tryin to drift....the fascinating/funny thing is there have been so many people in threads saying how they hate traditional instrument virtuosos and see it as grandstanding, yet every new product thread is....but does it have mpe doh? ....shrugs
Music had a one night stand with sound design.....And the condom broke

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It always reminds me of a theremin, but with more dimensions. Don't need it, don't care about the implementation really

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Hmm, seaboard 49 keys sold out at Thomann, so would I be buying into dead technology?

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