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Liero wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:14 am
zircon wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:48 pm Why would core interconnects be taxed more in that case? 10x plugins on one core vs 100x plugins on one core...?
Because processes are (most of the time and depending on the plugin) threaded strictly per track.

To put it slightly simplified:
One track that has plugin A, B and C on it won't process plugin A on core 1, plugin B on core 2 and plugin C on core 3. If it did, a slight latency would be created as data would have to be moved from one core to another. Instead, all the plugins are processed by the same core. Only when another, separate track is created, can the processor allocate a new core for the job, as the data it's having to process isn't dependent on any other processes.

Now, when plugin A, B and C _cannot_ be processed by core 1 alone, because the workload is too heavy, the processing has to be partly offloaded to another core, and this is where the interconnects get taxed, and some processors are worse at this than others. The 3900X that has a dual chiplet design in particular is probably bad at this, when the data needs to be moved from one chiplet to the other.

So when DAWbench tests with a few light plugins per track only, it creates a very optimal situation for the processor, as it allows processing to be threaded and scaled very easily. This doesn't always represent real-world scenarios very well, especially in DAW's like Bitwig, that have potentially many levels of nesting on one track -- meaning that very much processing has to be done on basically one thread.
Sorry, it seems I misunderstand what you mean in your example above. If we substitute plugin A for the synth, B for the delay and C for the reverb in my example, then I don't understand how the cpu would be able to split these 3 plugins to be processed on different cores and make the processing finishing faster than if they were all processed by one core?

If the synth takes 40% processing power, the delay 25% and the reverb 50% this totals 115% of available cpu power. Since these plugins have to be processed serially, the processing can't be done faster by utilising multiple cores in this scenario.

If a track like this would be used in DAW Bench then any cpu that could not handle one track would fail on one track, even if the cpu has 16 cores. Would that test be useful? Or if you create a track that uses 40% of an Intel Core i9-9900K you would likely get 16 tracks as a result of this in DAW Bench. To improve that score you would need either a cpu with similar single core performance but more cores, in which case you would get a score of 2 additional tracks per core, or you would need a cpu with the same number of cores but which has a single core performance of possibly 30% or more to then get an additional 8 tracks. For a cpu of the same number of cores you would not see any other result in between 16 and 24 tracks. So I don't see how this test would be very meaningful in a generic DAW Bench test.

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DoktorTenma wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:35 pm
Liero wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:14 am
zircon wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:48 pm Why would core interconnects be taxed more in that case? 10x plugins on one core vs 100x plugins on one core...?
Because processes are (most of the time and depending on the plugin) threaded strictly per track.

To put it slightly simplified:
One track that has plugin A, B and C on it won't process plugin A on core 1, plugin B on core 2 and plugin C on core 3. If it did, a slight latency would be created as data would have to be moved from one core to another. Instead, all the plugins are processed by the same core. Only when another, separate track is created, can the processor allocate a new core for the job, as the data it's having to process isn't dependent on any other processes.

Now, when plugin A, B and C _cannot_ be processed by core 1 alone, because the workload is too heavy, the processing has to be partly offloaded to another core, and this is where the interconnects get taxed, and some processors are worse at this than others. The 3900X that has a dual chiplet design in particular is probably bad at this, when the data needs to be moved from one chiplet to the other.

So when DAWbench tests with a few light plugins per track only, it creates a very optimal situation for the processor, as it allows processing to be threaded and scaled very easily. This doesn't always represent real-world scenarios very well, especially in DAW's like Bitwig, that have potentially many levels of nesting on one track -- meaning that very much processing has to be done on basically one thread.
Sorry, it seems I misunderstand what you mean in your example above. If we substitute plugin A for the synth, B for the delay and C for the reverb in my example, then I don't understand how the cpu would be able to split these 3 plugins to be processed on different cores and make the processing finishing faster than if they were all processed by one core?
There may be a language barrier going on here. I don't see where I would be saying what you say I'm saying. :lol:

Please keep in mind that I'm just trying to explain the whole thing in simplified terms for people who might think "more cores is always better, and always scale perfectly regardless of workload".

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I'm still scratching my head at how this test would produce different results. I guess if someone wants to try it...
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Liero wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:39 am
Kaine wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:14 pm Yes, absolutely. I was hoping to have this finished earlier in the week and specs already updated, but things didn't go as smoothly as I hoped. I'm not 100% happy with the tuf board, the DPC is higher than I prefer and whilst it got me through testing I'm not overly keen to start plugging in tons of extra hardware into it.

So, next week I'm doing some board testing and then will update the spec to reflect it. Given the results I plan to do a few different models, they are clearly going to be popular for a while!
It would be interesting to do a custom VST performance test that is more focused on a small number of tracks with high CPU plugins. The problem with using SGA1566 is that even in hq mode it's very cpu light compared to something like UVI Plate in insane quality mode, Soothe EQ, Massive X -- so the test scales across cores and tracks much better than potentially other setups.

Especially the 12-core 3900x would be interesting to test with less tracks and more cpu demand, with its dual-die configuration and infinity fabric interconnect.
Why not create one then?

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VitaminD wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:08 am
Liero wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:39 am
Kaine wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:14 pm Yes, absolutely. I was hoping to have this finished earlier in the week and specs already updated, but things didn't go as smoothly as I hoped. I'm not 100% happy with the tuf board, the DPC is higher than I prefer and whilst it got me through testing I'm not overly keen to start plugging in tons of extra hardware into it.

So, next week I'm doing some board testing and then will update the spec to reflect it. Given the results I plan to do a few different models, they are clearly going to be popular for a while!
It would be interesting to do a custom VST performance test that is more focused on a small number of tracks with high CPU plugins. The problem with using SGA1566 is that even in hq mode it's very cpu light compared to something like UVI Plate in insane quality mode, Soothe EQ, Massive X -- so the test scales across cores and tracks much better than potentially other setups.

Especially the 12-core 3900x would be interesting to test with less tracks and more cpu demand, with its dual-die configuration and infinity fabric interconnect.
Why not create one then?
Because I don't have 10 different computer setups lying around to make comparisons with? It makes a lot more sense for the person who can actually benchmark a lot of stuff decide what plugins to put in. I don't mind not being able to run the benchmark myself, but I'd be really interested in just seeing the differences between, say, a 9900k and 3900x in this type of scenario.

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DoktorTenma wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:35 pm Sorry, it seems I misunderstand what you mean in your example above. If we substitute plugin A for the synth, B for the delay and C for the reverb in my example, then I don't understand how the cpu would be able to split these 3 plugins to be processed on different cores and make the processing finishing faster than if they were all processed by one core?
Yes, it can't.
DoktorTenma wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:35 pm If the synth takes 40% processing power, the delay 25% and the reverb 50% this totals 115% of available cpu power. Since these plugins have to be processed serially, the processing can't be done faster by utilising multiple cores in this scenario.

If a track like this would be used in DAW Bench then any cpu that could not handle one track would fail on one track, even if the cpu has 16 cores. Would that test be useful?
>snip<
For a cpu of the same number of cores you would not see any other result in between 16 and 24 tracks. So I don't see how this test would be very meaningful in a generic DAW Bench test.
Yeah, the problem is, is that I'm interpreting it in exactly this way too and I agree that the test in that form doesn't make sense to me for the reasons you've outlined.

Fully admit that I might be missing something, but I don't see how using multiple plugin's with differing load characteristics are going to give us a result we can fully quantify.

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Kaine wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:12 am
DoktorTenma wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:35 pm Sorry, it seems I misunderstand what you mean in your example above. If we substitute plugin A for the synth, B for the delay and C for the reverb in my example, then I don't understand how the cpu would be able to split these 3 plugins to be processed on different cores and make the processing finishing faster than if they were all processed by one core?
Yes, it can't.
DoktorTenma wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:35 pm If the synth takes 40% processing power, the delay 25% and the reverb 50% this totals 115% of available cpu power. Since these plugins have to be processed serially, the processing can't be done faster by utilising multiple cores in this scenario.

If a track like this would be used in DAW Bench then any cpu that could not handle one track would fail on one track, even if the cpu has 16 cores. Would that test be useful?
>snip<
For a cpu of the same number of cores you would not see any other result in between 16 and 24 tracks. So I don't see how this test would be very meaningful in a generic DAW Bench test.
Yeah, the problem is, is that I'm interpreting it in exactly this way too and I agree that the test in that form doesn't make sense to me for the reasons you've outlined.

Fully admit that I might be missing something, but I don't see how using multiple plugin's with differing load characteristics are going to give us a result we can fully quantify.
The different load amounts of each plugin has nothing to do with this. I'm simply talking about making the test _less threaded_ instead of almost completely optimally threaded. If that still doesn't make sense I guess I'm running out of ideas on how to explain it.

If you don't believe me, just look at the basic DAWbench results you have for, say, the 3900x vs the 9900k and take the performance difference percentage. Now just create a low track count / high plugin cpu usage version that I mentioned and try it out on both machines and you definitely won't see the same performance difference as you had with DAWbench! And additionally you'll see that difference fluctuate a lot depending on buffer size!

If you don't think this disparity is interesting, then that's okay too, but for me it would be as it's so much closer to my real world usage scenarios.

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Liero wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:34 am
VitaminD wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:08 am
Liero wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:39 am
Kaine wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:14 pm Yes, absolutely. I was hoping to have this finished earlier in the week and specs already updated, but things didn't go as smoothly as I hoped. I'm not 100% happy with the tuf board, the DPC is higher than I prefer and whilst it got me through testing I'm not overly keen to start plugging in tons of extra hardware into it.

So, next week I'm doing some board testing and then will update the spec to reflect it. Given the results I plan to do a few different models, they are clearly going to be popular for a while!
It would be interesting to do a custom VST performance test that is more focused on a small number of tracks with high CPU plugins. The problem with using SGA1566 is that even in hq mode it's very cpu light compared to something like UVI Plate in insane quality mode, Soothe EQ, Massive X -- so the test scales across cores and tracks much better than potentially other setups.

Especially the 12-core 3900x would be interesting to test with less tracks and more cpu demand, with its dual-die configuration and infinity fabric interconnect.
Why not create one then?
Because I don't have 10 different computer setups lying around to make comparisons with? It makes a lot more sense for the person who can actually benchmark a lot of stuff decide what plugins to put in. I don't mind not being able to run the benchmark myself, but I'd be really interested in just seeing the differences between, say, a 9900k and 3900x in this type of scenario.
You do not require 10 different computer setups to make comparisons. If you make the benchmark and make it repeatable, then share it (so the community can run it), we will have a wealth of data.

It would be nice to have a one click process to start the test, conduct the test, and generate the results. Much like some of the 3D GPU and CPU benching tests that can be used to compare different systems with different hardware. You do seem knowledgeable (and passionate) on the matter.

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Lesha wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:17 pm How about a BIOS update?
Oh, that seems to be working. Thanks! :tu:

Suprisingly, I already updated BIOS about two months back. Didn't expect any issues at that point.
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