F+C = Dissonance?

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mediumaevum
KVRist
204 posts since 14 Feb, 2013

Post Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:30 am

If you play both F and C together, is that considered dissonance?

I don't understand why people claim it is dissonant. Could you explain it to me?

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AsPeeXXXVIII
KVRian
513 posts since 17 Aug, 2015 from Finland

Re: F+C = Dissonance?

Post Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:41 am

How could they be dissonant?

Like someone seriously explain that to me, please. I'm legitimately intrigued.
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mediumaevum
KVRist
204 posts since 14 Feb, 2013

Re: F+C = Dissonance?

Post Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:46 am

AsPeeXXXVIII wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:41 am
How could they be dissonant?

Like someone seriously explain that to me, please. I'm legitimately intrigued.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b-6bT_xA48

At 6:40:

"The F is the only note that works, with both the preparation - and the suspension.
It is CONSONANT with the A-cantus firmus, and it is DISSONANT with the C-cantus firmus note."


I still miss an explanation though, for how an F-note can be dissonant with C-cantus firmus.

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Forgotten
KVRAF
6071 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Re: F+C = Dissonance?

Post Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:34 am

All notes in equal temperament will be dissonant with each other to some degree, but the modern listener's ears have become attuned to the slight dissonances to the extent that the dissonance goes unnoticed.

For example, the F and the C that you quote - it's not a perfect fifth in equal temperament, as the C is pitched very slightly lower than the just intonation interval of 1.5 times the frequency of the F.

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jancivil
KVRAF
19193 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: F+C = Dissonance?

Post Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:00 am

It's a suspended 4th with a resolution; her definition of dissonance appears to rely on 'need to resolve', with the goalpost that consonance.
There are other very narrow proscriptions therein, such as you may only create the suspension from below as the 2-3 type.

"If you play both F and C together, is that considered dissonance?"
It would be a mistake to take it as more than this very narrow sort of lesson and that particular context.

Personally I found this kind of pedagogy quite useless, particularly since one will have already had diatonic and chromatic 4-part writing as a prerequisite and dealt with tons of suspensions where I was training. This is abstracted as counterpoint yet its concepts are from harmonic practice.
EG: the use value of 'only 2-3 when approached from the lower voice' being pretty much 0, technically (it's contextless and dogmatic), let alone in any music. Some people swear by it. :shrug:

mediumaevum
KVRist
204 posts since 14 Feb, 2013

Re: F+C = Dissonance?

Post Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:45 am

Thanks for the replies. But I think the confusion lies in her wrong use of the words NOTE and KEY. She specifically talks about the NOTES C and F, but what she probably meant was the F in the KEY of C-Major.

I hate when youtubers don't use correct words. It's confusing to say the least.

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vurt
addled muppet weed
54881 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Re: F+C = Dissonance?

Post Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:51 am

maybe don't expect to learn from youtubers looking for clicks?

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vurt
addled muppet weed
54881 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Re: F+C = Dissonance?

Post Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:54 am

and while im sure there are some great youtubers out there, its not like a book, where it has been reviewed and edited. even with a real life teacher, you use books, they just help you to understand what the books say ;)
if you are looking to learn in a meaningful way, id use youtube to back up what im reading, rather than youtube first.

mediumaevum
KVRist
204 posts since 14 Feb, 2013

Re: F+C = Dissonance?

Post Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:14 am

vurt wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:54 am
and while im sure there are some great youtubers out there, its not like a book, where it has been reviewed and edited. even with a real life teacher, you use books, they just help you to understand what the books say ;)
if you are looking to learn in a meaningful way, id use youtube to back up what im reading, rather than youtube first.
I prefer videos instead of books. I prefer diagrams instead of numbers.
I prefer images instead of descriptions.

That's because a picture says more than a thousand words.

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fmr
KVRAF
9038 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Re: F+C = Dissonance?

Post Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:20 am

I think first of all you need to define exactly what are you trying to achieve with the study.

Counterpoint is for composition what practicing scales is for the study of a musical instrument (at least, it's how I look at it). Almost all of the great composers of the past, AFAIK, passed through it, and learned from it (even if they ultimately didn't use it, at least in the scholastic way it is taught). It's up to you if you want to "practice your scales" or not. But if you do, you have to follow the rules or you will learn nothing from it.

Now, you are studying fourth species counterpoint. You shouldn't be posing such a question as to why is F+C a dissonance. It depends on the context - this is to be read linearly, not vertically. And it depends on what came before.

But, before anything else, did you study the first, second and third species, before reaching the 4th, or did you jumpin right into the 4th? Have you understood all of what was implied in those species?
Last edited by fmr on Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Fernando (FMR)

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Forgotten
KVRAF
6071 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Re: F+C = Dissonance?

Post Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:21 am

mediumaevum wrote:I prefer videos instead of books. I prefer diagrams instead of numbers.
I prefer images instead of descriptions.

That's because a picture says more than a thousand words.
What if it's a Jackson Pollock picture?

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Forgotten
KVRAF
6071 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Re: F+C = Dissonance?

Post Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:00 am

mediumaevum wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:46 am
AsPeeXXXVIII wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:41 am
How could they be dissonant?

Like someone seriously explain that to me, please. I'm legitimately intrigued.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b-6bT_xA48

At 6:40:

"The F is the only note that works, with both the preparation - and the suspension.
It is CONSONANT with the A-cantus firmus, and it is DISSONANT with the C-cantus firmus note."


I still miss an explanation though, for how an F-note can be dissonant with C-cantus firmus.
I watched the start of the video, and she points out the dissonance on the first beat of the second bar - D in the alto clef, and C in the treble clef.

It's in the key of C Major, so that's root and Major 2nd - that's a dissonant interval (albeit one that can be resolved as she points out).

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Forgotten
KVRAF
6071 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Re: F+C = Dissonance?

Post Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:18 am

Moving forward to 6:40 in the video, she notes that the 4th, 7th and 9th (implying 2nd) can be dissonant. This is correct, but don't confuse 'dissonant' with sounding unpleasant - in this case (where you're wondering about the 4th) it means 'unstable'. Dissonant 4ths are always going to be context based.

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jancivil
KVRAF
19193 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: F+C = Dissonance?

Post Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:58 am

Don't confuse sus4 'dissonance' with anything else. Any triad with a P5 which reiterates the root at octave contains a P4. Consecutive P4ths exist in some classic writing, incl counterpoint frequently enough:

https://imgur.com/a/MZsg6.

1) J.S. Bach, English Suite in G minor, Prelude
2) Beethoven, Piano Concerto No. 4, I
3) Chopin, Piano Sonata in B minor, I
4) Mozart, Sonata K. 310, III
5) Schubert, Moment musicaux, D. 780 No. 2


Don't believe such a suspension (V sus4-3) has this absolute need to be resolved, for that matter.
Music shouldn't be paint-by-number, it should be about having ideas.

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jancivil
KVRAF
19193 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: F+C = Dissonance?

Post Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:04 pm

that sort of course is about building chops, not stating rules. "dissonant", well, the distance between 3rd and 4th partials seems to be pretty stable in and of itself, or most of what sounds as musical tone is unstable.

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