AMD Ryzen 3rd gen. ZEN 2 processors for audio PC

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Apratim
KVRian
662 posts since 29 Dec, 2016 from India

Post Tue May 28, 2019 7:05 am

Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 6:50 am
So if #1 is likely being addressed, how do the lower clock speeds apply? Do the extra threads more than make up for it? What about Thunderbolt on Ryzen? Is that finally addressed? If I were buying a new audio PC this year (not entirely unlikely but I'll probably wait until 2020), I'd definitely want Thunderbolt support in order to give myself more interface options in the future.
clock speed vs threads ... it all comes to the amount the audio workload can be distributed over the cores so the software devs need to optimize to take the advantage.and as far as i know cubase,digital performer and reaper are the only daws which can take easily utilize all the cores of your cpu rest of the daws are still a single core performance hog

thunderbolt ...... i think thats a intel owed stuff .... you will need a separate pcie card for that
Last edited by Apratim on Tue May 28, 2019 7:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Apratim
KVRian
662 posts since 29 Dec, 2016 from India

Re: AMD Ryzen 3rd gen. ZEN 2 processors for audio PC

Post Tue May 28, 2019 7:05 am

repeated post
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foosnark
KVRAF
4878 posts since 9 Jan, 2003 from Saint Louis MO

Re: AMD Ryzen 3rd gen. ZEN 2 processors for audio PC

Post Tue May 28, 2019 7:37 am

I wonder about the Ryzen 5 3600 vs. Ryzen 7 3700X.

Between the 2600 and 2700X there's about a 6% single core performance difference, for twice the price. Multicore is where the real difference is.

If the same is true between 3600 and 3700X, I might just choose the 3600. Right now I'm running a 1st-gen Core i7 960, and even stepping up to a 2600 would be a huge performance gain. It's pretty rare that I run into issues with my current system -- I use mostly hardware synths, and only a few simultaneous tracks -- but it does happen.

ozonepaul
KVRist
127 posts since 18 Mar, 2007 from London

Re: AMD Ryzen 3rd gen. ZEN 2 processors for audio PC

Post Wed May 29, 2019 2:33 am


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DJ Warmonger
KVRAF
3349 posts since 7 Jun, 2012 from Warsaw

Re: AMD Ryzen 3rd gen. ZEN 2 processors for audio PC

Post Wed May 29, 2019 2:41 am

2) the lower clock speeds and
Clock speeds of new models will be significantly higher than 1st generation.

Unless you mean they are lower than Intels? Well, then you're comparing wrong things. What you should compare is actual performance in benchmarks.
http://djwarmonger.wordpress.com/
Tricky-Loops wrote: (...)someone like Armin van Buuren who claims to make a track in half an hour and all his songs sound somewhat boring(...)

Kaine
KVRAF
1923 posts since 4 Nov, 2004 from Manchester

Re: AMD Ryzen 3rd gen. ZEN 2 processors for audio PC

Post Wed May 29, 2019 2:58 am

Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 6:50 am
Preface: I haven't been keeping tabs on the CPU wars, but a few things that stick out to me with the Ryzen's as audio PCs, are 1) the reports of worse low latency performance, 2) the lower clock speeds and, 3) the missing Thunderbolt support. What's the general consensus on this with the new AMD's?
Can't truely know all these until they land in a few months, but vaguely speaking...
Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 6:50 am
So if #1 is likely being addressed, how do the lower clock speeds apply?
Do the extra threads more than makeup for it?


Ok, so you have IPC which is instruction per clock (cycle).
Then you have speed which is GHz and 1 GHz is a Billion cycles per second.
So if your IPC is 10% on one chip then a 3.0Ghz chip on that platform is likely to beat the 3.2GHz offering on the other platform with an equal number of cores.

So performance per cycle on the clocking is rarely, if ever even at even clocks.
Then you have to allow for performance overhead that tends to be lost when you add each core. The more you add, the more work the system has to do in order to manage and optimize the data handling.

So the answer to your question? Errm... depends. Throw enough threads at a problem and you'll probably speed up finding a solution.

Is it the cost-effective answer? Probably not.

This is why most firms still say clocks over cores to some degree. Most audio chains have to action the whole chain on a single given core. So if your channel one has a synth and 10 plugs, they are all getting actioned on a single core. If it's a nice fast core, your probably fine, but the slower the core overall the more likely it is to drop out sooner. If you have one super complex effects chain and one weak core, then no matter how great the overhead, the audio will collapse.

This is why I tend to optimize by matching all cores to the same speed and it's also why I tend to be a bit dismissive of those low power "U" series laptops, where the base clock is 1.* and the turbo is 4.*. I don't care if one core is running at 4.2GHz if another core is stuck at 1.6GHz, as that slow-core will prove to be a liability eventually.
Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 6:50 am
What about Thunderbolt on Ryzen? Is that finally addressed?
Intel made the standard open to all (at least on paper), but then we've heard little to nothing since. Your guess is as good as ours right now.
Apratim wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 7:05 am
as far as i know cubase,digital performer and reaper are the only daws which can take easily utilize all the cores of your cpu rest of the daws are still a single core performance hog
All DAW's I've used in the last few years (which is pretty much all of them) have a minimum of 16 thread support with most being 24 thread capable. Cubase will do 32 without stressing these days as will Reaper. Reaper has the distinction of being the one package that doesn't completely brick it when you go over 32 threads in fact. I think that they would probably advise against it as there is some incremental performance loss as you go above that figure, but out of all them, they are probably the most solid on a 40 thread if that's what you have to hand.
Apratim wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 7:05 am
thunderbolt ...... i think thats a intel owed stuff .... you will need a separate pcie card for that
And a board that supports it, normally via a dedicated physical header.

agharta
KVRist
383 posts since 10 Jan, 2018

Re: AMD Ryzen 3rd gen. ZEN 2 processors for audio PC

Post Wed May 29, 2019 11:51 am

Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 6:50 am
If I were buying a new audio PC this year (not entirely unlikely but I'll probably wait until 2020), I'd definitely want Thunderbolt support in order to give myself more interface options in the future.
Is TB3 just a nice to have feature or are there specific reasons and devices that make that essential for you?
It just hasn't taken off on the desktop although it's probably about to get even more traction in laptops as the next gen laptop chips have it integrated in the chipset; it seems much more useful in laptops anyway.
With USB continuing to evolve I suspect that TB3 will never gain much traction in desktops.

As for Ryzen, it's too early to say if the 3rd gen will overcome the limitations of the previous ones that underwhelmed in DAW benchmarks.
Pete at Scan is a good source for info:
http://www.scanproaudio.info/2018/10/19 ... e-refresh/

Funkybot's Evil Twin
KVRAF
6729 posts since 16 Aug, 2006

Re: AMD Ryzen 3rd gen. ZEN 2 processors for audio PC

Post Wed May 29, 2019 12:06 pm

agharta wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 11:51 am
Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 6:50 am
If I were buying a new audio PC this year (not entirely unlikely but I'll probably wait until 2020), I'd definitely want Thunderbolt support in order to give myself more interface options in the future.
Is TB3 just a nice to have feature or are there specific reasons and devices that make that essential for you?
Low latency audio interfaces. The performance of Thunderbolt rivals PCIe in that regard, so if I were going to buy a new PC, I'd want to keep my options open so I could potentially use a TB2 audio interface. It's hard to keep track of what's going on with Thunderbolt and USB these days, but if you want really low latency (talking RTL) performance, Thunderbolt is currently the way to go.

User avatar
Apratim
KVRian
662 posts since 29 Dec, 2016 from India

Re: AMD Ryzen 3rd gen. ZEN 2 processors for audio PC

Post Wed May 29, 2019 12:09 pm

Kaine wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 2:58 am
Apratim wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 7:05 am
thunderbolt ...... i think thats a intel owed stuff .... you will need a separate pcie card for that
And a board that supports it, normally via a dedicated physical header.
well i stand wrong
but.........

well it seems like even amd now have thunderbolt(still need a card) and usb 3.2
https://www.asrock.com/mb/AMD/X570%20Ph ... /index.asp
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agharta
KVRist
383 posts since 10 Jan, 2018

Re: AMD Ryzen 3rd gen. ZEN 2 processors for audio PC

Post Wed May 29, 2019 12:18 pm

Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 12:06 pm
agharta wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 11:51 am
Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 6:50 am
If I were buying a new audio PC this year (not entirely unlikely but I'll probably wait until 2020), I'd definitely want Thunderbolt support in order to give myself more interface options in the future.
Is TB3 just a nice to have feature or are there specific reasons and devices that make that essential for you?
Low latency audio interfaces. The performance of Thunderbolt rivals PCIe in that regard, so if I were going to buy a new PC, I'd want to keep my options open so I could potentially use a TB2 audio interface. It's hard to keep track of what's going on with Thunderbolt and USB these days, but if you want really low latency (talking RTL) performance, Thunderbolt is currently the way to go.
Sure, I'm aware of what TB is and BTW you'd want a TB3 device rather than TB2 ideally.
How significant is the latency difference for your particular workload?
I read about the potential of TB3 so curious to know what that means in real terms.

Funkybot's Evil Twin
KVRAF
6729 posts since 16 Aug, 2006

Re: AMD Ryzen 3rd gen. ZEN 2 processors for audio PC

Post Wed May 29, 2019 12:39 pm

agharta wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 12:18 pm
Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 12:06 pm
agharta wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 11:51 am
Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 6:50 am
If I were buying a new audio PC this year (not entirely unlikely but I'll probably wait until 2020), I'd definitely want Thunderbolt support in order to give myself more interface options in the future.
Is TB3 just a nice to have feature or are there specific reasons and devices that make that essential for you?
Low latency audio interfaces. The performance of Thunderbolt rivals PCIe in that regard, so if I were going to buy a new PC, I'd want to keep my options open so I could potentially use a TB2 audio interface. It's hard to keep track of what's going on with Thunderbolt and USB these days, but if you want really low latency (talking RTL) performance, Thunderbolt is currently the way to go.
Sure, I'm aware of what TB is and BTW you'd want a TB3 device rather than TB2 ideally.
How significant is the latency difference for your particular workload?
I read about the potential of TB3 so curious to know what that means in real terms.
Most interfaces are TB2 from what I understand. I don't know of any TB3 interfaces. In regards to usage, there's a long, excellent thread on Gearslutz with everything you ever wanted to know about audio interface performance and Round Trip Latency (RTL):

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-c ... -base.html

The bottom of the first post tells you most of what you need to know. The top interfaces are PCI or Thunderbolt. Excellent low latency performance, and incredibly low RTL. The RME UFX+ is the best USB interface of the bunch, close to TB level performance (it actually has both) but RME is the exception rather than the rule since they roll their own drivers from scratch.

User avatar
Pictus
KVRist
288 posts since 21 Aug, 2017 from Brasil

Re: AMD Ryzen 3rd gen. ZEN 2 processors for audio PC

Post Wed May 29, 2019 12:46 pm

Apratim wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 12:09 pm
well it seems like even amd now have thunderbolt(still need a card) and usb 3.2
https://www.asrock.com/mb/AMD/X570%20Ph ... /index.asp
The X570 Aqua, X570 Creator and the X570 Mini ITX-TB3 all have built-in Thunderbolt ports. :wheee:

https://youtu.be/XlG9pIE0XDo

fedexnman
KVRAF
2581 posts since 4 Jan, 2005

Re: AMD Ryzen 3rd gen. ZEN 2 processors for audio PC

Post Wed May 29, 2019 1:08 pm

I thought Thunderbolt3 was gonna be rebranded as USB4 with no decimals ....

User avatar
Apratim
KVRian
662 posts since 29 Dec, 2016 from India

Re: AMD Ryzen 3rd gen. ZEN 2 processors for audio PC

Post Thu May 30, 2019 7:14 am

Pictus wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 12:46 pm
Apratim wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 12:09 pm
well it seems like even amd now have thunderbolt(still need a card) and usb 3.2
https://www.asrock.com/mb/AMD/X570%20Ph ... /index.asp
The X570 Aqua, X570 Creator and the X570 Mini ITX-TB3 all have built-in Thunderbolt ports. :wheee:

https://youtu.be/XlG9pIE0XDo
well it seems like i am proved wrong again
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AdvancedFollower
KVRian
504 posts since 8 May, 2018 from Sweden

Re: AMD Ryzen 3rd gen. ZEN 2 processors for audio PC

Post Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:48 am

foosnark wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 7:37 am
I wonder about the Ryzen 5 3600 vs. Ryzen 7 3700X.

Between the 2600 and 2700X there's about a 6% single core performance difference, for twice the price. Multicore is where the real difference is.

If the same is true between 3600 and 3700X, I might just choose the 3600. Right now I'm running a 1st-gen Core i7 960, and even stepping up to a 2600 would be a huge performance gain. It's pretty rare that I run into issues with my current system -- I use mostly hardware synths, and only a few simultaneous tracks -- but it does happen.
I have an 8-core Ryzen 7 1800X, and I'm frequently thankful for the extra cores. Studio One does a pretty good job of distributing the load across cores, so I can just keep piling on the plugins while all 16 threads gradually take over more of the load, without any one core getting overloaded until the amount of plugins reaches ridiculous, completely unrealistic levels.

However my setup is the opposite of yours, as I almost only use plugin instruments and effects. If you aren't even running into limitations with an old i7 960, the mid-range 3rd gen Ryzens are probably also going to be more than enough.

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