KVR Audio

Dasheesh · Post by **Dasheesh** » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:19 pm

the legend, monarch, and diva all sound different because they were modeled off different mini's.

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:23 pm

BBFG# wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:16 pm I didn't evade it. I just gave you the uncomfortable answer.
Or equally, one could answer, because you haven't designed it yourself.

Your uncomfortable answers has no basis in fact. You're claiming that I'm suffering from nostalgia, living in the past, don't really remember what a CS-80 actually sounds like and thus will never be happy with any emulation made of the synth.

For that to be true, it would have to be true of any synth of comparable age.

The Legend (Minimoog 1970) - Love It!
PolyM (Polymoog 1975) - Love It!
CS-80s Emulations (Yamaha CS-80 1976) Hate Them All!

So synths that are even older than the CS-80 I love the emulations while the synth that is actually newer, I hate.

So your hypothesis is faulty.

So now maybe you'll answer my question or continue to claim that I suffer from nostalgia. Either way, I couldn't care less since you have nothing constructive to add to this conversation.

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:24 pm

Dasheesh wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:19 pm the legend, monarch, and diva all sound different because they were modeled off different mini's.

OMG, do I have to put you on ignore? Stop talking nonsense.

dubguy99 · Post by **dubguy99** » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:25 pm

The actual answer: Doing a CS-80 emulation to the level of detail found in The Legend and others would probably take too long to be economically viable. For example, U-He already took a very long time with their Prophet emulation and that's a sizable company and a synth with a waaaay simpler architecture.

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:25 pm

Saukar30 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:17 pm
wagtunes wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:36 pm
Maybe that's the answer to my question and I can just go lock this thread because I don't need to hear people that we have synths that either sound better or can come close.
Wags, I have no intent on disrespecting you at all... but personally, I think locking the thread after a day is a bit hasty. You ask great questions and sometimes it takes the right person to answer them. Gotta give your topics a chance to breathe... even if the 1st 4 pages get annoying.

To put in my 2 cents, BTW, I tried the Aruria CS-80 & the Other one (I forget the name). I agree, this synth hasn't been done any justice in the VST world. I think this is one of the few that require some different direction in virtual software as far as technological as well as understanding the musicianship towards the instrument.

This, A JD-850 & an Andromeda are big synths that , if done correctly, could fill someone's sonic pallet for years.

Thank you. Someone who actually hears what I'm hearing.

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:27 pm

dubguy99 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:25 pm The actual answer: Doing a CS-80 emulation to the level of detail found in The Legend and others would probably take too long to be economically viable. For example, U-He already a long time on their Re-Pro emulation and that's a sizable company and a synth with a waaaay simpler architecture.

Thank you. You're probably right. It's certainly better than some of the answers I've gotten here. And it's a shame. The emulations out there do this synths a disservice.

BBFG# · Post by **BBFG#** » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:29 pm

Well, you are suffering. From what can always be debated.
BTW, when I think of this sound from that composer, I'm more apt to point to OoSH more than BR. At least I think that was the keyboard he used on that.

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:34 pm

BBFG# wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:29 pm Well, you are suffering. From what can always be debated.
BTW, when I think of this sound from that composer, I'm more apt to point to OoSH more than BR. At least I think that was the keyboard he used on that.

Have a nice day.

BBFG# · Post by **BBFG#** » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:37 pm

And it's not that we're not hearing what you're hearing, but that it's not particularly as serious as you think it is.

KVR addage: If you don't like them, don't use them.

As the synth itself, I have no use for it either. But as a Yamaha organ to layer under the Vox, it does the job for me.

BBFG# · Post by **BBFG#** » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:46 pm

It's not enough to say it sucks or it's just not right or not good enough... All very vague and subjective. So let's have something more specific...

What exactly is wrong with the available emulations in your opinion?

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:10 pm

BBFG# wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:46 pm It's not enough to say it sucks or it's just not right or not good enough... All very vague and subjective. So let's have something more specific...

What exactly is wrong with the available emulations in your opinion?

Now you want me to get into technical specs and I'm not a tech guy. I can only go by my ear and what I hear and trying to explain what you hear is difficult under the best circumstances.

All I can say is this. Listen to the resonators on the PolyM. I absolutely cannot hear a difference between them and the resonators on the real thing. Listen to Gary Numan's Cars Polymoog patch and then listen to the PolyM's. To me, they're identical.

No, I haven't run each through an oscilloscope to see if they actually ARE identical. But to my ears, they are.

Arturia's CS 80 filters? Not identical to the real thing. But then that's been a complaint about Arturia's emulations in general from the majority of the people who have bought them. I'm not the only one. Right there, the filters not being accurate, the sound is NOT going to be the same even if everything else was spot on, which it's not.

In layman's terms, the emulations sound thinner then the real thing. The filters are weak. Those are the major differences.

And for the record, just as a plain synth goes, the Arturia CS-80 is okay. I use it for some stuff but I'd never use it if I wanted to accurately reproduce the sound of a particular CS-80 patch.

Same thing with their Jupiter and MIni emulations. I use them for some things but never if I want an accurate sound.

They're not horrible sounding synths. Just poor emulations.

Stefken · Post by **Stefken** » Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:11 pm

Why isn't stuff being produced?
I guess this is more and more becoming a pure business decision. We have a market that is saturated with analog emulations.
So a company asks itself: what will be my return on investment?

Xils spend 2 years on the polyM. How much did he get paid per hour eventually? Probably less then me working my day job.

I can't speak for U-he but I read somewhere between the lines that they aren't very keen on doing another pure emulation as they did with repro. It turned out to be more work than they anticpated. Current projects are Hive and Zebra, so no emulations on the board as far as I know.

I guess the expected return on investment is just not there for a CS-80.
Why don't we have a proper MS-20? Same answer I guess.

( My opinion on the Arturia CS-80? I never had a real CS-80 to compare with. I like the Arturia as it is, as a new instrument on itself.
Not your question, I know. Just giving my opinion here)

pepelogu · Post by **pepelogu** » Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:13 pm

Wagtunes is right. A proper CS-80 emulation is sadly missing. However, it will come, I wouldn't be suprised if some company is already on it. Most of the other synth legends are already done emulation-wise.

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:16 pm

pepelogu wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:13 pm Wagtunes is right. A proper CS-80 emulation is sadly missing. However, it will come, I wouldn't be suprised if some company is already on it. Most of the other synth legends are already done emulation-wise.

I don't agree. I don't think we're ever going to see one because I think the few people who actually bothered to answer my question are right. There's probably no money in it.

If I had the expertise and the time, I'd do one just for myself. But I don't. I wouldn't even know where to begin to make a CS-80 emulation.

sinemotor · Post by **sinemotor** » Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:17 pm

Indeed, there isn't an ultra realistic CS-80 emulation out there but what can we do to get that ultra realistic emulation ? What is technically missing in those available CS-80 VSTs ?

For me what makes the CS-80 interesting is its random instabilities, noise, detuned voices... and its expressiveness. All those little quirks that doesn't make it sound static. And to recreate those quirks I think it's much more a question of sound design than the synthesiser itself. Sure each synth has its own architecture and thus its own signature sound but you can approximate or emulate those factors if you think a little bit outside the box.

In my experience, with Repro-5 and Diva you can make really convincing CS-80 ish sounds. Same with Massive (believe it or not but it's an amazing synth for "organic" analog type of sounds mainly because you have so much control over the tones of your patch), Omnisphere 2, etc...

Personal opinion here but I think we should move on with strict analog emulations and really focus our energy on novel concepts for software synths.

Why Can't We Get A CS-80 VST That Actually Sounds Like a CS-80?