Vember Audio Surge is now open-source

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
Ah_Dziz
KVRAF
2560 posts since 2 Jul, 2005

Post Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:42 pm

baconpaul wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:06 pm
Ah_Dziz wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:06 am
Hi there. I'm using surge almost exclusively In MPE mode. It doesn't appear to save this setting in bitwig however. Is there something I'm doing wrong or is this a bug in bitwig? Ideally it would save the MPE on or off with the patch , but If I can set it to always be MPE:on (like in a config file or something) I'd be happy too. It's a bummer that I have to reset this every time I reopen a project. I'm still using bitwig 1 and I'm using the VST2 version. Thanks. I'll check it in Cubase to see If I get the same behavior.
MPE Mode is off by default and activates in one of two ways

1: You do the menu MPE Enable or
2: Your keyboard sends an appropriate MIDI sequence which indicates MPE setup and Surge toggles.

AFAIK the midi sequence thing works with anyone implementing the MPE standard; and also with a Roli Seaboard 49 (which didn’t seem to send the documented standard but did send some other stuff, and I put that in the code).

We could pretty easily make it so MPE is toggle on by default for all surges. If you want that please open up a github issue. But also in that same issue if you share your device showing the first splat of midi it sends would be great; perhaps we could expand the idiosyncractic message handling to make it work? Perhaps?

(Full disclosure: The reason I started working in Surge was to make the MPE mode work in mac AU for the Roli; so pretty happy to add features for other MPE devices and patches. But github better than KVR to discuss such things).
Ideally I would love to have it stored per patch. Then I could use both MPE and non MPE patches along side one another. If that’s not doable for whatever reason then I’d love to have it be a persistent global setting. I’ll head over to github and figure out how to make an issue. I use a Roli seaboard and I’ve never had it turn on MPE for me with any synth. Thanks for your help as always.
Don't F**K with Mr. Zero.

baconpaul
KVRist
78 posts since 25 Dec, 2018

Re: Vember Audio Surge is now open-source

Post Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:16 pm

Ah_Dziz wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:42 pm
baconpaul wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:06 pm
Ah_Dziz wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:06 am
Hi there. I'm using surge almost exclusively In MPE mode. It doesn't appear to save this setting in bitwig however. Is there something I'm doing wrong or is this a bug in bitwig? Ideally it would save the MPE on or off with the patch , but If I can set it to always be MPE:on (like in a config file or something) I'd be happy too. It's a bummer that I have to reset this every time I reopen a project. I'm still using bitwig 1 and I'm using the VST2 version. Thanks. I'll check it in Cubase to see If I get the same behavior.
MPE Mode is off by default and activates in one of two ways

1: You do the menu MPE Enable or
2: Your keyboard sends an appropriate MIDI sequence which indicates MPE setup and Surge toggles.

AFAIK the midi sequence thing works with anyone implementing the MPE standard; and also with a Roli Seaboard 49 (which didn’t seem to send the documented standard but did send some other stuff, and I put that in the code).

We could pretty easily make it so MPE is toggle on by default for all surges. If you want that please open up a github issue. But also in that same issue if you share your device showing the first splat of midi it sends would be great; perhaps we could expand the idiosyncractic message handling to make it work? Perhaps?

(Full disclosure: The reason I started working in Surge was to make the MPE mode work in mac AU for the Roli; so pretty happy to add features for other MPE devices and patches. But github better than KVR to discuss such things).
Ideally I would love to have it stored per patch. Then I could use both MPE and non MPE patches along side one another. If that’s not doable for whatever reason then I’d love to have it be a persistent global setting. I’ll head over to github and figure out how to make an issue. I use a Roli seaboard and I’ve never had it turn on MPE for me with any synth. Thanks for your help as always.
So here’s the documentation about the spec and what the Roli actually does

https://github.com/surge-synthesizer/su ... r.cpp#L778

(I know that’s a code link but just read the comment).

Basically the Roli sends RPN messages down which surge reads to turn on MPE. So if you aren’t getting that behavior something is stopping surge from getting those messages.

I use the AU and Logic Pro on Mac. I wonder if, say, the VST2 in Bitwig 1 suppresses the RPN message. I can try the VST2 Bitwig Mac sometime this week with my Roli but maybe that comment can help?

If not then yup a github issue would be where would sort this out. I agree per patch would be super, but I’m trying super hard to avoid patch streaming changes before 1.6.0 if I can. A global is easy tho.

Ah_Dziz
KVRAF
2560 posts since 2 Jul, 2005

Re: Vember Audio Surge is now open-source

Post Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:38 pm

So I could just embed that midi data on any track that I want to use for MPE? That would simplify matters. Will one instance’s MPE on/off status effect any others?
Don't F**K with Mr. Zero.

kone2006
KVRist
37 posts since 18 Jan, 2014

Re: Vember Audio Surge is now open-source

Post Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:44 pm

if the orange & blue colors of modulation section are less saturated or replaced by grey it will improve readability a lot.

baconpaul
KVRist
78 posts since 25 Dec, 2018

Re: Vember Audio Surge is now open-source

Post Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:52 am

Ah_Dziz wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:38 pm
So I could just embed that midi data on any track that I want to use for MPE? That would simplify matters. Will one instance’s MPE on/off status effect any others?
Well actually the Roli sends it when you start playing so if I make a new surge and play my Roli it gets that and toggles automatically (AU Logic Pro)

But yes: That RPN header will toggle an instance and that instance status is isolated.

Ah_Dziz
KVRAF
2560 posts since 2 Jul, 2005

Re: Vember Audio Surge is now open-source

Post Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:13 am

Neat. I’m gonna try this in cubase. Bitwig is poo for many midi tasks, but I may have some of this stuff defaulted to be filtered out of the input in cubase. It (Bitwig) always makes me use “Force MPE” before any synth will respond properly regardless of the settings in the synth. I bet the “force MPE” sends the data you’re referring to. Makes sense anyway. I dunno. Thanks. I think I can make a workaround with just the info you’ve
Don't F**K with Mr. Zero.

codec_spurt
KVRAF
3521 posts since 21 Sep, 2005

Re: Vember Audio Surge is now open-source

Post Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:31 pm

baconpaul, so it's not unreasonable to think you don't want me to represent your second hand synth here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOad90BvvjM

I can do a better one if you like?

I can even post more bugs on github for you...


Paul... Paul... Paul...
"you're all GUI whores." - banned KVR member 'snooky'.

Kwurqx
KVRist
358 posts since 15 Jun, 2017

Re: Vember Audio Surge is now open-source

Post Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:01 am

baconpaul wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:08 pm
Kwurqx wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:01 pm
Maybe I'm missing something (again). But...

In Surge's FM2 and FM3 oscillators, there's currently no option to detune the operators. No finetune and/or semitones. Only octaves.

FM (mostly Phase Modulation) is inherently very sensitive to any detuning and/or phase change. So the oscillators are usually phase synced and stable. This is why the concept is usually implemented in digital synths.

FM is often blamed for it's very clean sound. But subtle detuning of operator within a stack (carrier and 1 or more modulators) will result in timbre changes at detuning rate. Detuning at semitones intervals would be nice too.

In the separate FM section there is the option to detune operators (since they are the independent oscillators 1, 2 and 3).
I thought the difference between FM2 and FM3 was that FM2 required an integer multiple for M and FM3 allows a float multiple; so with FM2 you can’t accidentally mis-tune the modulation frequency but with FM3 you can (by dragging M1 using shift-drag for fine adjustment or shift-scroll-wheel for fine adjustment).

I’m on my iPad not at surge now so may be backwards between FM2 and FM3. Also if this isn’t what you mean please either reply here or (better) open a github issue with details.

You are correct of course in the FM routing section you can detune between the oscillators, but I think in the FM3 oscillator you can detune internally also.
I intend to have a look at the GitHub feedback/bug/feature request options.

You are right. FM2 only offers integer intervals only. FM3 offers FM2 integer intervals plus a fixed frequency modulator. You can probably use modulation (note) to force the "fixed" frequency into a "detuned" modulator.

To illustrate: a simple 2 x 2 operator (carrier+modulator) stack where in one stack you detune the carrier and in the other you detune the modulator would be a breeze if in FM2 (or FM3) carrier and modulator could be detuned relative to each other. Now, in FM2 (and FM3) the carrier/modulator ratio is allways integer or (in FM3) the extra modulator runs at a "fixed" frequency (when not modulated).

User avatar
EvilDragon
KVRAF
17988 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Re: Vember Audio Surge is now open-source

Post Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:31 am

Modulate MX Shift with an LFO to kinda emulate detuning between 2 FM operators when you use FM2.

Also FM3 offers non-integer ratios.

Kwurqx
KVRist
358 posts since 15 Jun, 2017

Re: Vember Audio Surge is now open-source

Post Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:57 am

EvilDragon wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:31 am
Modulate MX Shift with an LFO to detune FM2 operator.
Could it be so simple? It actually says so in the manual. Note to self: RTFM!
https://surge-synthesizer.github.io/manual/

Thought I checked that slider though and MX Shift did not sound like FM operator detune. Doesn't MX Shift in fact only changes the (initial) Phase of the modulator?

Detuning will cause the phase of the detuned oscillator to keep shifting forever in one direction in cycles of the frequency difference between the two oscillators.

Modulation the phase with an LFO....that would have to be a sawtooth then that effectively shifts phase one way only....emulating a detune cycle....since a sine or triangle would shift phase up and down.

Anyway...

Maybe I'm wrong and my memory does not serve me as well as it used to. And maybe using an LFO to modulate MX Shift is the solution. I'll check MX Shift out when I have the chance.

Kwurqx
KVRist
358 posts since 15 Jun, 2017

Re: Vember Audio Surge is now open-source

Post Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:23 am

Kwurqx wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:57 am
EvilDragon wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:31 am
Modulate MX Shift with an LFO to detune FM2 operator.
Could it be so simple? It actually says so in the manual. Note to self: RTFM!
https://surge-synthesizer.github.io/manual/

Thought I checked that slider though and MX Shift did not sound like FM operator detune. Doesn't MX Shift in fact only changes the (initial) Phase of the modulator?

Detuning will cause the phase of the detuned oscillator to keep shifting forever in one direction in cycles of the frequency difference between the two oscillators.

Modulation the phase with an LFO....that would have to be a sawtooth then that effectively shifts phase one way only....emulating a detune cycle....since a sine or triangle would shift phase up and down.

Anyway...

Maybe I'm wrong and my memory does not serve me as well as it used to. And maybe using an LFO to modulate MX Shift is the solution. I'll check MX Shift out when I have the chance.
Evildragon, you are right. And so is Surge's manual. Mx Shift is indeed Modulator detune within the FM2 oscillator. And not just a fixed phase shift.

No such luck in the FM3 oscillator though. It has no Mx Shift. But it does non-integer ratios for M1 and M2. So that can be exploited. And it seems that Keytrack can indeed solve detuning for M3. If you set the M3 Freq modulation amount to 12 it follows notes (behaving like an integer ratio). Any other modulator can then be used to then (de)tune.

User avatar
Halonmusic
KVRAF
2073 posts since 13 Nov, 2015 from Norway

Re: Vember Audio Surge is now open-source

Post Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:13 am

This is how Surge looks in energyXT 3.

Both the latest 32bit version aswell as the 32bit Nightly version. Is it supposed to look like that?
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Don't be a Sheep. :borg:

glokraw
KVRAF
6835 posts since 6 Oct, 2004

Re: Vember Audio Surge is now open-source

Post Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:41 am

That may be ext3's fallback interface for when a full gui
won't respond, or the fallback was chosen as an ext3 setting previously.
The gui is normally orange blue and gray panels full of
gizmos to shape the sounds. Try Surge in the reaper demo
from www.reaper.fm
Cheers

User avatar
Halonmusic
KVRAF
2073 posts since 13 Nov, 2015 from Norway

Re: Vember Audio Surge is now open-source

Post Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:55 am

glokraw wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:41 am
That may be ext3's fallback interface for when a full gui
won't respond, or the fallback was chosen as an ext3 setting previously.
The gui is normally orange blue and gray panels full of
gizmos to shape the sounds. Try Surge in the reaper demo
from www.reaper.fm
Cheers
I will try that thanks.
Don't be a Sheep. :borg:

lectropunk
KVRian
502 posts since 26 Sep, 2011 from new ross wexford ireland

Re: Vember Audio Surge is now open-source

Post Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:49 pm

Any links to free presets I'd say there would be some available...

Return to “Instruments”