Maschine or Akai

Sampler and Sampling discussion (techniques, tips and tricks, etc.)
SLiC
KVRAF
3685 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:43 pm

I don’t use Maschne, but you could, the MS surface is iPad like but runs windows 10 64bit so you can run whatever you run on a full PC - no App Store so you can just download and install what you already own, from Diva to Sountoys,,.,I have Bitwig and Studio one running on my Surface, Bitwig works particularly well as it has a tablet mode with several linnstrument like pseudo MPE touch keyboard layouts. It’s not much more than an iPad Pro...if you have a lot of PC music software it is definitely worth it....long battery life as well.
i7 Win 10 PC+ Surface, BWS, StudioOne 4, Cubase10, Live9, X32 Desk. , DM12, P8, Virus TI, Syst1m, 500hp Eurorack, Elektron A4, RYTM, OT, Heat, Digitone, Deluge, MPC Live, OP-Z, Mother+DFAM, Drums, Guitars, Basses and Amps

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bmanic
KVRAF
8443 posts since 3 Feb, 2003 from Finland, Espoo

Re: Maschine or Akai

Post Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:59 pm

Yeah that's a good call indeed.. but price wise a good MS Surface will cost a lot more than the MPC Live or a basic iPad. Then again I think you could get a pretty basic MS Surface too or perhaps get a used one?

I've thought about going that route myself before getting the MPC (and I'll probably go that route once I've sold the MPC).
"Wisdom is wisdom, regardless of the idiot who said it." -an idiot

machinesworking
KVRAF
1612 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Re: Maschine or Akai

Post Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:19 pm

bmanic wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:38 pm
machinesworking wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:15 pm
Don't take my word for it, the Maschine forums are a constant onslaught of disappointment, with mods joining in even. Compare that to the 1 million+ views MPC live thread on Gearslutz, where a the head of product development stops by to chat and talk about features etc.
This I can agree with. However it's worth noting that this is a first for Akai. The MPC Live and X are literally the first products in over a decade that Akai have actually decided to properly support and update. They have been notoriously bad in this area before.. which is why it takes a great leap of faith to fully give them the benefit of a doubt that they've changed.
[/quote]
The MPC in general they've supported pretty well. The controllers still work etc. I definitely don't see them as any worse than NI, a lot better than NI actually. I see that the MPC had a period of inactivity before these latest updates, but it's been two or three updates with a ton of new features. Whether or not they're things you personally wanted you have to admit it's been a massive upgrade to the already bought and paid for hardware.

They also need to get rid of very weird limitations. Like why the hell can we not have a simple on/off trigger state for a pad with an infinitely looped sample? This very feature is already implemented in the sample edit screen. It'd be extremely useful for live performances.
Clips in MPC Live do exactly that. Look into it, 2.4 significantly improved Clips.

Anyhow, yeah perhaps I am giving the MPC too much flak but it really is one of the most disappointing hardware purchases I have ever made, mostly due to how much potential there is for improvement and how slowly it has evolved. This seems to be ramping up though. Akai have done quite a good job on updating it lately.
Yeah that's a shit ton of flack. I bought it a couple months ago before the synths were added in, and now all those Air FX. One of the developers comments on the main MPC live thread on Gearslutz at the least weekly, answering questions even. I might have rosed colored glasses on because of good timing, we'll see, they're pumping the Force pretty hard right now, but a new Song window is coming, I would guess similar to Ableton Live's arrangement page, definitely I would guess by the end of the year, as the Force currently doesn't have a Song window/page etc. The developer lead said MPC Live will get the new window, along with keeping it's old song window. They are looking into multi midi input, etc. etc. I think they're going in a different direction these days. Compare it to Maschine, and it's night and day, Maschine is getting.... loops, yay...

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bmanic
KVRAF
8443 posts since 3 Feb, 2003 from Finland, Espoo

Re: Maschine or Akai

Post Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:21 am

machinesworking wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:19 pm
They also need to get rid of very weird limitations. Like why the hell can we not have a simple on/off trigger state for a pad with an infinitely looped sample? This very feature is already implemented in the sample edit screen. It'd be extremely useful for live performances.
Clips in MPC Live do exactly that. Look into it, 2.4 significantly improved Clips.
NO! Clips in MPC Live are NOT a substitute. They are cumbersome as f**k and in my view completely useless due to how limited they are.

For live use I need to be able to sample in real time, add the sample onto a pad and then have full control of it's synthesis parameters, all while audio is never interrupted. Clips not nothing like that. They are simple stupid audio clips that you just trigger. It's infuriating.
machinesworking wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:19 pm
Yeah that's a shit ton of flack. I bought it a couple months ago before the synths were added in, and now all those Air FX. One of the developers comments on the main MPC live thread on Gearslutz at the least weekly, answering questions even. I might have rosed colored glasses on because of good timing, we'll see, they're pumping the Force pretty hard right now, but a new Song window is coming, I would guess similar to Ableton Live's arrangement page, definitely I would guess by the end of the year, as the Force currently doesn't have a Song window/page etc. The developer lead said MPC Live will get the new window, along with keeping it's old song window. They are looking into multi midi input, etc. etc. I think they're going in a different direction these days. Compare it to Maschine, and it's night and day, Maschine is getting.... loops, yay...
You definitely have rose tinted glasses on. Most definitely.

You have to realize that the MPC Live was released way back in 2017 and it was absolutely stupid at the time of release. Also most of the complaints to the basic user experience have been requested to be fixed ever since the Akai MPC Renaissance was released. A good example being the ability to flip the phase of samples.. which is an absolutely crucial and necessary tool when layering samples. These requests go back literally a decade and nothing has happened. There are many other similar very simple things that have been requested to be fixed but nothing has happened.

For instance that whole MIDI debacle. The MPC X was marketed as a studio centerpiece, a workstation.. yet doesn't support multitimbral midi properly. This kind of logic and lack of understanding from Akai is mind boggling. Yeah, they may be fixing this part in 2019 (knock on wood!) but that's 2 years late already.

So yeah, your timing is impeccable. It allows you to not know anything about Akai's history of neglect. Hopefully Akai has truly changed and is now making an effort to make their hardware better through updates but I'm to jaded and burned by the past to be completely convinced yet.
"Wisdom is wisdom, regardless of the idiot who said it." -an idiot

dtrq
KVRer
27 posts since 28 Nov, 2014

Re: Maschine or Akai

Post Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:30 am

Yes, the clips thing is a joke. It's unbelievable that after so many years they still don't have such basic functionality as sequence lunching. So if you have made a beat or synth riff in piano roll, you have to bounce it as audio to be able to assign to pads. Nonsense.

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bmanic
KVRAF
8443 posts since 3 Feb, 2003 from Finland, Espoo

Re: Maschine or Akai

Post Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:32 am

Exactly. This is the 21st century for f**ks sake. Akai is so damn stuck in the 90s.
"Wisdom is wisdom, regardless of the idiot who said it." -an idiot

SLiC
KVRAF
3685 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Re: Maschine or Akai

Post Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:39 am

bmanic wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:21 am
machinesworking wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:19 pm
They also need to get rid of very weird limitations. Like why the hell can we not have a simple on/off trigger state for a pad with an infinitely looped sample? This very feature is already implemented in the sample edit screen. It'd be extremely useful for live performances.
Clips in MPC Live do exactly that. Look into it, 2.4 significantly improved Clips.
NO! Clips in MPC Live are NOT a substitute. They are cumbersome as f**k and in my view completely useless.

For live use I need to be able to sample in real time, add the sample onto a pad and then have full control of it's synthesis parameters, all while audio is never interrupted. Clips not nothing like that. They are simple stupid audio clips that you just trigger. It's infuriating.
Thats why I have an Electron Octatrack (sample/loop in real time, control of it's synthesis parameters, even an LFO designer and the best seqyencer and A/B slider in the business!) but it isnt what I would go to for simple sample/slice and midi beats, MPC does a better job of that IMO.

Of course software can do both well (Live/Biwig etc) and that can be portable (MS Surface Go is under 500 quid, an Pro (i5, 8 Meg RAM, SSD - what I use) is around 800 quid) but you are then back to the software/hardware issues, and thats personal preference.

Example - I had a drummer come around my litle studio the other day to put drums on a track via my TD-8, whilst I was editing on my DAW he just picked up the MPC and within 5 minutes he was loading sounds to kits and putting down loops with finger druming (some great keepers!) - no computer, he just played like an instrument on his lap...that has a value.
i7 Win 10 PC+ Surface, BWS, StudioOne 4, Cubase10, Live9, X32 Desk. , DM12, P8, Virus TI, Syst1m, 500hp Eurorack, Elektron A4, RYTM, OT, Heat, Digitone, Deluge, MPC Live, OP-Z, Mother+DFAM, Drums, Guitars, Basses and Amps

SLiC
KVRAF
3685 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Re: Maschine or Akai

Post Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:42 am

bmanic wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:32 am
Exactly. This is the 21st century for f**ks sake. Akai is so damn stuck in the 90s.

This is for clips...

https://force.akaipro.com/

I see far more inovation here than NI or Ableton who just make USB controllers. This is stand alone hardware. AKAI have also said V3 of MPC software will align with many of the features added in Force, so the clip section in the MPC will have Automatic BPM detection, real-time time-stretching and pitch-shifting, Smart Scales, Chords & Progressions etc:

Standalone – no computer required | 8x8 clip launch matrix with RGB LEDs | 7" full color capacitive multitouch display | Mic / instrument / line inputs, 4 outputs | MIDI In / Out / Thru | 4 configurable CV/Gate outputs | Remix, mash-Up, DJ and produce with 6 Track types for complete audio / MIDI / CV sequencing and performance capability | Performance Modes including 16-Pad Drums, Notes, Smart Scales, Chords & Progressions | MPC Sample Editing | Automatic BPM detection, real-time time-stretching and pitch-shifting | 8 touch-sensitive knobs with graphical OLED displays | 4 powerful, fully-editable synth engines | 16GB of on-board storage (over 10 gigs of sound content included) | Full-Size SD card Slot & 2 USB 3.0 slots for thumb drives or MIDI controllers | User-expandable 2.5" SATA drive connector (SSD or HDD)
i7 Win 10 PC+ Surface, BWS, StudioOne 4, Cubase10, Live9, X32 Desk. , DM12, P8, Virus TI, Syst1m, 500hp Eurorack, Elektron A4, RYTM, OT, Heat, Digitone, Deluge, MPC Live, OP-Z, Mother+DFAM, Drums, Guitars, Basses and Amps

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bmanic
KVRAF
8443 posts since 3 Feb, 2003 from Finland, Espoo

Re: Maschine or Akai

Post Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:57 am

None of that sounds innovative at all. The only unique part is that it's a standalone machine (it's a computer running Linux btw.. just like the MPC).

I've checked all of the Akai Force videos and it's the same baloney as before. It's all extremely simplistic. You just listed a bunch of marketing bullshit, mainly some hardware peripherals (hurray! SD card slot! USB!!) and very basic things.

You seriously think Ableton has less sophisticated clip launching? Dude, you're dreaming and living in a fantasy world if you think that's the case. :)
"Wisdom is wisdom, regardless of the idiot who said it." -an idiot

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telecode
KVRian
627 posts since 24 Mar, 2015 from Toronto, Canada

Re: Maschine or Akai

Post Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:10 am

bmanic wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:59 pm
Yeah that's a good call indeed.. but price wise a good MS Surface will cost a lot more than the MPC Live or a basic iPad. Then again I think you could get a pretty basic MS Surface too or perhaps get a used one?

I've thought about going that route myself before getting the MPC (and I'll probably go that route once I've sold the MPC).
I am looking into it. I am just worried about the CPU on the Surface Go. I thought the CPU's were tailored to conserve power. I could see issues with using plugins on it. But I may be wrong. I am looking at the new MS Surface Laptop 2. Looking to see when then will release it with a new 9th gen Intel cpu.
Just a keep on a goin' a forward, without a single ounce of fear

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bmanic
KVRAF
8443 posts since 3 Feb, 2003 from Finland, Espoo

Re: Maschine or Akai

Post Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:54 am

If you only use basic sample triggering and processing and some basic non-CPU intensive synths then a few generations old i5 will be plenty enough to make huge complex songs.

This is exactly what the MPC is built on. It has a very slow crappy CPU inside it, running Linux as the operating system. Thus it allows you a limited amount of polyphony for sample triggering and only offers very basic synthesizers coded by AIR Music Technology.. which also offers some synths on the PC and Mac platforms, all of them really CPU friendly.

The problem is that as soon as you get a "real" computer you expect much more from it than a standalone box, which is also a computer but sort of hidden. It's a weird psychology.
"Wisdom is wisdom, regardless of the idiot who said it." -an idiot

SLiC
KVRAF
3685 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Re: Maschine or Akai

Post Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:09 am

bmanic wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:57 am
None of that sounds innovative at all. The only unique part is that it's a standalone machine (it's a computer running Linux btw.. just like the MPC).

I've checked all of the Akai Force videos and it's the same baloney as before. It's all extremely simplistic. You just listed a bunch of marketing bullshit, mainly some hardware peripherals (hurray! SD card slot! USB!!) and very basic things.

You seriously think Ableton has less sophisticated clip launching? Dude, you're dreaming and living in a fantasy world if you think that's the case. :)
I am not a fan of Live, Bitwig is far superior :wink:

The force isn't something I would buy personally, but AKAI did something Ableton didn't (put it in stand-alone hardware) and if I get the more advanced clip features in my MPC for free then I am very happy with that :tu:

The Force does have some more advanced features than Live/Push (smart Scales, Chords & Progressions) but hardware (as I said) will never be as powerful as a dedicated computer and software, but for many that wont matter if they don't like working in front of a PC/Mouse/QWERTY etc.

Thats one of the reasons why people by hardware (even hardware that is just a computer repackaged like most synth workstations) - the type of people who come in to my project studio are generally not the type of people who are OK with sitting in front of a PC with a mouse (you can tell when they come in with a ukulele and a Bodhran!) thats just the way it is for some musisians and the older I get the more I feel that way!
i7 Win 10 PC+ Surface, BWS, StudioOne 4, Cubase10, Live9, X32 Desk. , DM12, P8, Virus TI, Syst1m, 500hp Eurorack, Elektron A4, RYTM, OT, Heat, Digitone, Deluge, MPC Live, OP-Z, Mother+DFAM, Drums, Guitars, Basses and Amps

SLiC
KVRAF
3685 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Re: Maschine or Akai

Post Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:19 am

FYI- If you are a Live fan the Force is looking like being a better LIVE controller than PUSH! It was always amazing to me that Ableton (as a DJ orientated product) didn't but an A/B slider on PUSH, Force has it and a lot more controls + a 7 inch touchscreen, so in Live controller mode (and with a stand alone option) many may find it has value.
i7 Win 10 PC+ Surface, BWS, StudioOne 4, Cubase10, Live9, X32 Desk. , DM12, P8, Virus TI, Syst1m, 500hp Eurorack, Elektron A4, RYTM, OT, Heat, Digitone, Deluge, MPC Live, OP-Z, Mother+DFAM, Drums, Guitars, Basses and Amps

machinesworking
KVRAF
1612 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Re: Maschine or Akai

Post Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:56 am

bmanic wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:21 am
machinesworking wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:19 pm

They also need to get rid of very weird limitations. Like why the hell can we not have a simple on/off trigger state for a pad with an infinitely looped sample? This very feature is already implemented in the sample edit screen. It'd be extremely useful for live performances.
Clips in MPC Live do exactly that. Look into it, 2.4 significantly improved Clips.
NO! Clips in MPC Live are NOT a substitute. They are cumbersome as f**k and in my view completely useless due to how limited they are.

For live use I need to be able to sample in real time, add the sample onto a pad and then have full control of it's synthesis parameters, all while audio is never interrupted. Clips not nothing like that. They are simple stupid audio clips that you just trigger. It's infuriating.
OK you're moving the goalpost, Clips do exactly what you stated at first, adding in all the other things you want to be able to do with a sample is fine I guess? but it's nonsense to expect that I would intuitively know what you wanted to do... :roll:

machinesworking wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:19 pm
Yeah that's a shit ton of flack. I bought it a couple months ago before the synths were added in, and now all those Air FX. One of the developers comments on the main MPC live thread on Gearslutz at the least weekly, answering questions even. I might have rosed colored glasses on because of good timing, we'll see, they're pumping the Force pretty hard right now, but a new Song window is coming, I would guess similar to Ableton Live's arrangement page, definitely I would guess by the end of the year, as the Force currently doesn't have a Song window/page etc. The developer lead said MPC Live will get the new window, along with keeping it's old song window. They are looking into multi midi input, etc. etc. I think they're going in a different direction these days. Compare it to Maschine, and it's night and day, Maschine is getting.... loops, yay...
You definitely have rose tinted glasses on. Most definitely.

You have to realize that the MPC Live was released way back in 2017 and it was absolutely stupid at the time of release. Also most of the complaints to the basic user experience have been requested to be fixed ever since the Akai MPC Renaissance was released. A good example being the ability to flip the phase of samples.. which is an absolutely crucial and necessary tool when layering samples. These requests go back literally a decade and nothing has happened. There are many other similar very simple things that have been requested to be fixed but nothing has happened.
Again, hyperbole is strong with you. Nothing has happened eh? I don't need to argue against that, it's simply not true. Things you personally wanted to happen didn't happen. I've never had any issues with phase and layering samples, it's not a feature I care about at all, I get that you're passionate about it, but you're assuming that all Live owners share your outrage, we don't.
For instance that whole MIDI debacle. The MPC X was marketed as a studio centerpiece, a workstation.. yet doesn't support multitimbral midi properly. This kind of logic and lack of understanding from Akai is mind boggling. Yeah, they may be fixing this part in 2019 (knock on wood!) but that's 2 years late already.
Again, another thing I just don't have any anger or outrage about. Multi channel MIDI input is something I don't really expect out of hardware, or need. I'm happy people are getting it for whatever arcane need they have, but it wasn't a deal killer when I bought it, and won't be if it never comes.
So yeah, your timing is impeccable. It allows you to not know anything about Akai's history of neglect. Hopefully Akai has truly changed and is now making an effort to make their hardware better through updates but I'm to jaded and burned by the past to be completely convinced yet.
Maybe you should research a product before you purchase it? I knew the MPC didn't have multi midi in and other limitations before I bought it. I don't compare it to my laptop filled with software, and sub sequentially I'm not disappointed in AKAI.

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telecode
KVRian
627 posts since 24 Mar, 2015 from Toronto, Canada

Re: Maschine or Akai

Post Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:44 pm

bmanic wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:54 am
If you only use basic sample triggering and processing and some basic non-CPU intensive synths then a few generations old i5 will be plenty enough to make huge complex songs.

This is exactly what the MPC is built on. It has a very slow crappy CPU inside it, running Linux as the operating system. Thus it allows you a limited amount of polyphony for sample triggering and only offers very basic synthesizers coded by AIR Music Technology.. which also offers some synths on the PC and Mac platforms, all of them really CPU friendly.

The problem is that as soon as you get a "real" computer you expect much more from it than a standalone box, which is also a computer but sort of hidden. It's a weird psychology.
still looking into it. what i don't get about the MPC LIve is, is this thing a DJ tool?

I see it comparted to a Toriaz.

https://www.pioneerdj.com/en-us/product ... /overview/
Just a keep on a goin' a forward, without a single ounce of fear

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