U-he offer from Native instruments

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
7692 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:31 pm

fmr wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:51 am
Actually (and I don't intend to be dismissal on DUNE, which I really appreciate), DIVA has a more varied choice of filters than DUNE.
DUNE has 30 different filter types to choose from and because there are two filters, you can square that number, for 900 possible filter combinations. And that's before you take into account the multiple routing options. Diva has how many? 7?
To start, it has a real SEM SVF, which is one of the most versatile filters ever made (DUNE doesn't).
No, Diva has a digital emulation of a SEM VCF. DUNE 3's dual filters would easily be able to recreate anything that filter model can do, plus a whole lot more. Diva's filters are all way too nice, I found it very limiting in the demo.
Regarding the oscillators, DUNE is a wavetable synth
No, no, no, no no. DUNE has three different oscillator options - standard VA, 3-op FM (per oscillator) or wavetables. Personally, I only ever use the VA oscillators but the options are there if I ever feel I need them.
it (DUNE) can load thousands of waveforms (technically limitless number of waveforms, since we can build our own wavetables). But if don't take that into account, as a pure VA synth, I don't think it has that much to offer that DIVA can't rival with. Actually, since DIVA also has the oscillators of JP-8000, it eventually has more variety than DUNE in that aspect too.
Again, no. You said it yourself - DUNE "can load thousands of waveforms (technically limitless number of waveforms...)". Emulated JP8000 oscillators aren't in the same league.
EnGee wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:58 pm
There also different kinds of envelopes in Diva (emulated), so you can make your own "bastard" synth :hihi:
DUNE has 4 x MSEGs, so you aren't restricted to what technology was capable of 50 years ago, you can do pretty much anything you can imagine. It is infinitely more versatile than a handful of emulated envelope behaviours. If you doubt me, have a listen to some of DUNE's kick drum presets. They are awesome.
Anyway, it's not only that! The sound character is different and workflow as well, just to put it mildly! So that I don't understand the comparison and what Bones wants to say! Dune is very much a Virus inspired especially in sound, while Diva is a flexible collection of vintage parts emulated.
My original response was to a comment suggesting that Diva was great because it was so flexible. I simply used DUNE as an example of a synth that is far more flexible and suggested if flexibility was what you were after, Diva was actually a poor choice. Simple, logical.
fmr wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:00 pm
DUNE doesn't have a SVF filter (emulated ot otherwise). And the only multimode filter it has is the so called "Clean Multimode" (which doesn't seem to model anything). The modeled filters are clearly labeled "Analog Models" and they are all Low-Pass filters. You also have a transistor ladder, but it's uncertain that it is modeled after the Moog filter, since it has much more pole alternatives (but again, just Low-Pass). Finally, you have the Sallen Key modeled filter, which is also a multimode filter in some way, but just 12 dB.
Seriously? Every filter in every VA softsynth is a modelled filter. Just because it's not modelled after anything in particular, doesn't mean it isn't modelled on what an analogue filter does to a signal. " Analogue modelled is just a marketing term, not any special kind of programming. All those filters are likely just as complex to create. How is that not completely obvious to you?

I'd also point out that there is no such thing as "just 12dB" when you have two filters that can be routed in series. I'll explain - a 12dB/octave filter is generally a 2-pole filter and a 24dB/octave filter is generally a 4-pole filter. So when you pass a signal through 2 x 2-pole filters, what do you get? You get a 4-pole filter, which is 24dB/octave.
So, I still maintain that, in terms of filters, DIVA offers more with less, IMO. Just the SVF makes it a winner.
Then you are ignorant of the capabilities of a set-up like DUNE's.
IMO, of course. We are comparing apples and oranges here.
No, what you are doing is taking a specific comment and turning it into a generalised comment, which is stupid.
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Deep Purple
KVRian
758 posts since 9 Jan, 2015 from NY, NY

Re: U-he offer from Native instruments

Post Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:15 pm

BONES wrote:I'd also point out that there is no such thing as "just 12dB" when you have two filters that can be routed in series. I'll explain - a 12dB/octave filter is generally a 2-pole filter and a 24dB/octave filter is generally a 4-pole filter. So when you pass a signal through 2 x 2-pole filters, what do you get? You get a 4-pole filter, which is 24dB/octave.
That's close, but it's a little more complex than that.

A 24dB/octave 4 pole filter will behave differently from two 12dB/octave 2 pole filters because of the way in which filters are built. Audio filters are generally active filters which have circuits that reduce the interaction between each pole in the filter, so two 12dB/octave 2 pole filters will be missing the electronic buffering between each other.

I did the math around this at college, so I know there's a lot of work goes into design of filters. Hardware is even more complex because most analog components are manufactured to tolerances that can allow one batch of components behave differently in a circuit from another.
Sweet child in time...

EnGee
KVRAF
5178 posts since 7 Oct, 2005

Re: U-he offer from Native instruments

Post Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:16 pm

@Bones:
I really don't know why you keep mentioning Dune?!
First, I'm comparing Diva to RePro, not to all synths out there! For maximum flexibility, I would choose Reaktor not Dune (and I have both).

Second, even if we can compare Diva and Dune 2/3 as synths. You already know why I don't choose Dune as my go-to synth because of its workflow and design, so I found it very strange you are mentioning it to me!

Third, it's my personal taste and preference. I see Diva a great choice (so as the Legend ;) ).
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sleepcircle
KVRian
574 posts since 28 Nov, 2016

Re: U-he offer from Native instruments

Post Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:31 pm

it looks like this thread is going well.

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martinjuenke
KVRAF
3149 posts since 28 Dec, 2015 from Germany

Re: U-he offer from Native instruments

Post Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:21 pm

GRRRRRRRR!

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elassi
KVRAF
2143 posts since 8 Sep, 2009

Re: U-he offer from Native instruments

Post Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:32 pm

sleepcircle wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:31 pm
it looks like this thread is going well.
As long as no one mentions iLok. :hihi:

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Urs
u-he
23357 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Re: U-he offer from Native instruments

Post Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:57 am

Diva has 14 filter types in the main filter section plus 4 filters in the HP/Mixer section. That's 18. If you now also consider that they sound and behave slightly different with each quality level, you get 72. And there you go, that's the number I'll insist upon if we play silly games of apples vs. oranges.

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Distorted Horizon
KVRAF
1620 posts since 17 Jan, 2017 from Planet of cats

Re: U-he offer from Native instruments

Post Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:42 am

*Whipihhhhh* :lol:
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Elektronisch
KVRAF
2820 posts since 3 Feb, 2010

Re: U-he offer from Native instruments

Post Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:47 am

Urs wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:57 am
Diva has 14 filter types in the main filter section plus 4 filters in the HP/Mixer section. That's 18. If you now also consider that they sound and behave slightly different with each quality level, you get 72. And there you go, that's the number I'll insist upon if we play silly games of apples vs. oranges.
And if you are an editor of vintage synth page http://www.vintagesynth.com/, filters would have to be quantified by the amount of unison voices synth has :lol: so 72 x 6 = 432 :clown: and dune 3 now has 30 x 8 = 240 but Dune 3 also has filter fx wich adds even more variations, so i suppose dune 3 will break 1k filters :clown:

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Delta Sign
KVRian
646 posts since 22 Jun, 2018

Re: U-he offer from Native instruments

Post Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:54 am

Diva also basically has a comb filter in the digital osc with two different quality settings. Such filters, much wow doge.jpg

I think the "more is better" thing is kind of silly. It's easy to design a synth with 128 filters, oscillators, LFOs....., but to reduce a design to a feature set that is limited enough to be inspiring, but not too limited to be flexible, is the true art.

"Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."

Elektronisch
KVRAF
2820 posts since 3 Feb, 2010

Re: U-he offer from Native instruments

Post Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:09 am

tbh imo its better to have creative filters (comb, formant as ex) then regular ones if you run for quantity. New regular filters didnt do much and i could easely live without them, except Alpha filter, that one is a good addition, can change the sound clarity quite significantly. And also the new added creative filters.

PieBerger
KVRist
190 posts since 23 May, 2012 from London

Re: U-he offer from Native instruments

Post Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:21 am

Delta Sign wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:54 am

I think the "more is better" thing is kind of silly. It's easy to design a synth with 128 filters, oscillators, LFOs....., but to reduce a design to a feature set that is limited enough to be inspiring, but not too limited to be flexible, is the true art.

"Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."
:clap: spot on, more =! better, but it does make synths more marketable sadly because "so features, much LFOs, wow"
Always Read the Manual!

chk071
KVRAF
18858 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: U-he offer from Native instruments

Post Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:27 am

EnGee wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:16 pm
@Bones:
I really don't know why you keep mentioning Dune?!
Me neither. There was no mentioning of it at all. :D

nevernamed
KVRist
152 posts since 20 May, 2014

Re: U-he offer from Native instruments

Post Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:52 am

BONES wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:31 pm

DUNE has 30 different filter types to choose from and because there are two filters, you can square that number, for 900 possible filter combinations. And that's before you take into account the multiple routing options. Diva has how many? 7?
You know more isn't necessarily more in music. Brian Eno famously said, and I paraphrase, everyone is obsessed with more options/features etc. It isn't more options that you want.

Also more features doesn't concomitantly mean more flexibility; though it can. It can also mean one feature utilised in many different ways. Actually in my mind that definition is a little bit closer.

I seriously doubt that anyone can exploit even the alleged "limited" feature-set in Diva. That synth is vast enough that it kind of already flirts with departing from the less is more ideology. But in this case I think it kind of works since each component is meant to correspond to it's analogue counterpart so if you want a MS20 filter you can have it in the signal path. I think the balance is just right since it's about 6 or 7 analogue synths and some digital oscillators.

Lastly, the bottleneck isn't the synth. I think in almost all cases the bottleneck will be the person (converting all that potential into musical ideas or something that resembles coherent tracks etc.). Some of the best electronica tracks were made with the SH101 or Juno or the Mini and all those are less flexible as you say than pretty much any vst these days.

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telecode
KVRist
328 posts since 24 Mar, 2015 from Toronto, Canada

Re: U-he offer from Native instruments

Post Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:10 am

Throwing these numbers around is pointless. The general consumer buy's virtual synths because they want to make music and be creative in their spare time in life with the product they purchased*. In my books, it's really no different than deciding you want to paint in your spare time and you spend some of your disposable income on canvases and paints at an art store.

FWIW, I was seriously considering getting the bundle during the sale and I demo'ed the two synths in the bundle for a while. At the end I didn't got for it because I felt the synths sounded retro and because I felt I already have waayyy too many retro sounding synths on my system already. However, that being said, Diva did sound much better than the other products on my system at the cost of higher CPU power: but, I also found I was a able to achieve almost the same same results by doubling synth parts and adding a maximizer plugin to the synth tracks using the other products on my system. Maybe I have no idea what I am doing or talking about, but to my neophyte ears, with those synth tracks buried behind other instruments, the results sounded very very similar at almost the same CPU cost.

I would really like to see a product in the bundle that has a more "modern" synth sound. I have not idea what and how to exactly describe properly "modern" as it's a highly personal aesthetic, but the Moog/Prophet/Juno 70s/80s analog sounding stuff isn't it.

Just throwing it out there as a potential consumer who would like to see that kind of stuff in the product portfolio offering.

* I guess people doing sound design and not making music may probably use the Diva product in a different way and will be creating synth derived sounds with it instead of making music, so maybe this doesn't apply to them as its a different type of creativity altogether.
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