What Should My SPAN Look Like?
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 21196 posts since 8 Oct, 2014
I hope you'll bear with me here.
My productions are starting to approach decent. A big reason is my use of SPAN religiously.
For example, I was told that a lot of my tracks had too much going on at 5k. So I'd make a note of that and if I see my 5k is too high (say at -6 db as opposed to -12 db for everything else) I'd lower it down to remove the harshness.
And that's all well and good.
But as I'm doing this and trying to get what I think is a proper SPAN readout, I realized that I have no idea what an ideal SPAN should look like. Should everything be around - 12db, -10db? Should the upper frequencies (say 2k and above) be slightly higher or lower than the mid frequencies? When should you start cutting the low end mud? 30, 40?
Is there an ideal SPAN for a track? If I downloaded 10 pro tracks into my DAW and ran it through SPAN, would they all look relatively the same? Would there be major differences depending on the genre? And if SPAN optimization is genre dependent, how are those readings determined?
I am trying to optimize the frequencies of my tracks and realizing that I'm swimming in a sea of uncertainty that I don't even know how to remotely navigate.
So, can somebody give me some kind of baseline? Or does none exist? Is it all by ear, taste, genre or whatever? In short, are there simply no guidelines?
Any assistance you can provide will be greatly appreciated.
My productions are starting to approach decent. A big reason is my use of SPAN religiously.
For example, I was told that a lot of my tracks had too much going on at 5k. So I'd make a note of that and if I see my 5k is too high (say at -6 db as opposed to -12 db for everything else) I'd lower it down to remove the harshness.
And that's all well and good.
But as I'm doing this and trying to get what I think is a proper SPAN readout, I realized that I have no idea what an ideal SPAN should look like. Should everything be around - 12db, -10db? Should the upper frequencies (say 2k and above) be slightly higher or lower than the mid frequencies? When should you start cutting the low end mud? 30, 40?
Is there an ideal SPAN for a track? If I downloaded 10 pro tracks into my DAW and ran it through SPAN, would they all look relatively the same? Would there be major differences depending on the genre? And if SPAN optimization is genre dependent, how are those readings determined?
I am trying to optimize the frequencies of my tracks and realizing that I'm swimming in a sea of uncertainty that I don't even know how to remotely navigate.
So, can somebody give me some kind of baseline? Or does none exist? Is it all by ear, taste, genre or whatever? In short, are there simply no guidelines?
Any assistance you can provide will be greatly appreciated.
- Boss Lovin' DR
- 12629 posts since 15 Mar, 2002 from the grimness of yorkshire
I had noticed you posting a lot of screenshots of SPAN...
First off, it's probably a lot easier if you use the 'stereo mastering preset' - gives a more averaged view of what's going on over time.
Second, whilst it's useful to have a look and see that there's nothing overly poking out too much, it really is dependent a lot on genre/style/the requirements of the song - mix with your ears, not with your eyes and all that.. As an example have a look at something like say Master of Puppets and there'll be a huuuge gap in the middle, whereas for more standard pop-rock stuff the display will be more level.
Again, for the latter part of your post - it really is down to the track - what's 'mud' in one song is 'warmth' in another. You can generalise a bit and there is loads of stuff online eg;
http://productionadvice.co.uk/using-eq/
..but again, it's about really listening critically to what's going on and the interaction between te instruments.
First off, it's probably a lot easier if you use the 'stereo mastering preset' - gives a more averaged view of what's going on over time.
Second, whilst it's useful to have a look and see that there's nothing overly poking out too much, it really is dependent a lot on genre/style/the requirements of the song - mix with your ears, not with your eyes and all that.. As an example have a look at something like say Master of Puppets and there'll be a huuuge gap in the middle, whereas for more standard pop-rock stuff the display will be more level.
Again, for the latter part of your post - it really is down to the track - what's 'mud' in one song is 'warmth' in another. You can generalise a bit and there is loads of stuff online eg;
http://productionadvice.co.uk/using-eq/
..but again, it's about really listening critically to what's going on and the interaction between te instruments.
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- addled muppet weed
- 105882 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass
i blame layzer.donkey tugger wrote: ↑Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:33 pm I had noticed you posting a lot of screenshots of SPAN...
but yes, as donks says, use your ears. then if you hear something off, look at span to see what needs adjusting.
but if it sounds good, stuff span
- Boss Lovin' DR
- 12629 posts since 15 Mar, 2002 from the grimness of yorkshire
The dirty devils!
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- KVRAF
- 2757 posts since 5 Jun, 2011 from Preston, England, UK
[/quote]
if it sounds good, stuff span
[/quote]
This
if it sounds good, stuff span
[/quote]
This
The inner workings of vurts mind are a force to be reckoned with.
music is a need in my life...yes I could survive without it but tbh I dont know how
myfeebleeffort
https://paulroach2.bandcamp.com/
https://hearthis.at/83hdtrvm/
music is a need in my life...yes I could survive without it but tbh I dont know how
myfeebleeffort
https://paulroach2.bandcamp.com/
https://hearthis.at/83hdtrvm/
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 21196 posts since 8 Oct, 2014
The problem with exclusively using my ears is I've had them tested and everything from 5k and above is gone. I can't hear it. So I can't rely on my ears. At least not for the upper frequencies. So in this case, what do I do if I can't rely on my ears?
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- addled muppet weed
- 105882 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass
ha! they did just draw tits and forget it
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- addled muppet weed
- 105882 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass
ah well, if you don't trust your ears i guess its an option.
but as you know, every track is going to be different, but look at the thing donks posted for muppets, the top bit of that is where you seem worried about, and most things will be looking for something similar around the top frequencies.
a steady smooth drop as the higher the freq the less amplitude needed to out put it
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- KVRist
- 360 posts since 26 Oct, 2018
What kind of music are you doing?
Heres my approach to SPAN, with Techno/electronic music.
I have slopes set up.
My first slope is the high resolution option at 5.0, and do most of my initial work on that. I setup a loop on my ready to go, processed drum kit. With the high res 5.0 slope, the peaks of the bass drum and peaks of the highs (hats, rides, etc) are equal. Good starting point. Image is like a U.
Once I bring in the synths, pads, etc, ilI start eq’ing (at the instrument level) all the unnecessary frequencies around 250-500 range (reserve that for basslines) so theres a dip between the lows and 1k, as that where a lot of instruments like to take up space. EQ’ing the lows out of snares, claps, etc... Techno is a lot of “boom-tss-boom-tss” so the U shape sorta stays as the drumkit is the main part. All the other synth add ons typically go in the middle of the span image 800-4k area.
This leaves Span looking like a W. I switch to a 5.5 master slope and lows and highs are bouncing evenly. (5.0slope for more highs, 6.0 for less highs, and adjust accordingly.) From here I go in and start tweaking an EQ to bring up some of the stuff around 5-6k to let give it presence.
People say dont mix with your eyes but if most of the professional songs look a certain way on SPAN, you bet Im going to compare it and learn from how they do it! It’s helped me a ton.
Heres my approach to SPAN, with Techno/electronic music.
I have slopes set up.
My first slope is the high resolution option at 5.0, and do most of my initial work on that. I setup a loop on my ready to go, processed drum kit. With the high res 5.0 slope, the peaks of the bass drum and peaks of the highs (hats, rides, etc) are equal. Good starting point. Image is like a U.
Once I bring in the synths, pads, etc, ilI start eq’ing (at the instrument level) all the unnecessary frequencies around 250-500 range (reserve that for basslines) so theres a dip between the lows and 1k, as that where a lot of instruments like to take up space. EQ’ing the lows out of snares, claps, etc... Techno is a lot of “boom-tss-boom-tss” so the U shape sorta stays as the drumkit is the main part. All the other synth add ons typically go in the middle of the span image 800-4k area.
This leaves Span looking like a W. I switch to a 5.5 master slope and lows and highs are bouncing evenly. (5.0slope for more highs, 6.0 for less highs, and adjust accordingly.) From here I go in and start tweaking an EQ to bring up some of the stuff around 5-6k to let give it presence.
People say dont mix with your eyes but if most of the professional songs look a certain way on SPAN, you bet Im going to compare it and learn from how they do it! It’s helped me a ton.
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- KVRist
- 360 posts since 26 Oct, 2018
Im the other way, I use span to get the outline going then go by ear at the endvurt wrote: ↑Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:36 pmi blame layzer.donkey tugger wrote: ↑Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:33 pm I had noticed you posting a lot of screenshots of SPAN...
but yes, as donks says, use your ears. then if you hear something off, look at span to see what needs adjusting.
but if it sounds good, stuff span
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 21196 posts since 8 Oct, 2014
I do all kinds of music. I take it instrument by instrument. I make sure the kick and bass stay out of each other's way. I make sure the metals (cymbals, hats, etc.) don't get too harsh at 5k and above. I make sure the vocals don't conflict with the rhythm instruments, whether they be guitar, piano or whatever. I EQ a lot. I try to keep everything in the - 12db range and a straight line across. Sometimes the highs are a little higher but not much.Butwug wrote: ↑Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:43 am What kind of music are you doing?
Heres my approach to SPAN, with Techno/electronic music.
I have slopes set up.
My first slope is the high resolution option at 5.0, and do most of my initial work on that. I setup a loop on my ready to go, processed drum kit. With the high res 5.0 slope, the peaks of the bass drum and peaks of the highs (hats, rides, etc) are equal. Good starting point. Image is like a U.
Once I bring in the synths, pads, etc, ilI start eq’ing (at the instrument level) all the unnecessary frequencies around 250-500 range (reserve that for basslines) so theres a dip between the lows and 1k, as that where a lot of instruments like to take up space. EQ’ing the lows out of snares, claps, etc... Techno is a lot of “boom-tss-boom-tss” so the U shape sorta stays as the drumkit is the main part. All the other synth add ons typically go in the middle of the span image 800-4k area.
This leaves Span looking like a W. I switch to a 5.5 master slope and lows and highs are bouncing evenly. (5.0slope for more highs, 6.0 for less highs, and adjust accordingly.) From here I go in and start tweaking an EQ to bring up some of the stuff around 5-6k to let give it presence.
People say dont mix with your eyes but if most of the professional songs look a certain way on SPAN, you bet Im going to compare it and learn from how they do it! It’s helped me a ton.
-
- KVRian
- 1090 posts since 24 Jul, 2018
You're probably better off just getting a spectrum matcher like Melda Auto EQ or I think Fab ProQ3 does it too. Just take the curves from an already mastered song and apply it to yours.
Me I personally don't care how my reading matchup because I'm going for a different sound anyway. If will all you know about audio engineering it sounds good to you then it's going to sound good to the 99% of people who know nothing about it.
Me I personally don't care how my reading matchup because I'm going for a different sound anyway. If will all you know about audio engineering it sounds good to you then it's going to sound good to the 99% of people who know nothing about it.
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- KVRist
- 360 posts since 26 Oct, 2018
I tune my kick/bassline to each other and make sure they dont cross each other too much in frequency. Ill eq out the kick a little where the bassline is sitting. It sounds punchier. The harshness in the TR909 cymbals come in the form of resonances around 3-5k. They dont sit well with the ear, and take up a lot of space. It’s easy to spot them on a spectrum analyzer. They stand out. I used to turn the rides and cymbals down but they always sounded harsh, even when low. EQ’ing the resonances out lets you crank em up in the mix to their proper level and not sound nasty.wagtunes wrote: ↑Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:58 am
I do all kinds of music. I take it instrument by instrument. I make sure the kick and bass stay out of each other's way. I make sure the metals (cymbals, hats, etc.) don't get too harsh at 5k and above. I make sure the vocals don't conflict with the rhythm instruments, whether they be guitar, piano or whatever. I EQ a lot. I try to keep everything in the - 12db range and a straight line across. Sometimes the highs are a little higher but not much.
And what do you mean by you put everything to -12db? You match everything up on SPAN at -12db? What slope are you using? -12db straight across can differ depending on your slope. I think the default slope is 4.50. All the professional techno and house songs Ive referenced on span are 5-6 on master slope.
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 21196 posts since 8 Oct, 2014
I use the default slope.Butwug wrote: ↑Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:57 amI tune my kick/bassline to each other and make sure they dont cross each other too much in frequency. Ill eq out the kick a little where the bassline is sitting. It sounds punchier. The harshness in the TR909 cymbals come in the form of resonances around 3-5k. They dont sit well with the ear, and take up a lot of space. It’s easy to spot them on a spectrum analyzer. They stand out. I used to turn the rides and cymbals down but they always sounded harsh, even when low. EQ’ing the resonances out lets you crank em up in the mix to their proper level and not sound nasty.wagtunes wrote: ↑Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:58 am
I do all kinds of music. I take it instrument by instrument. I make sure the kick and bass stay out of each other's way. I make sure the metals (cymbals, hats, etc.) don't get too harsh at 5k and above. I make sure the vocals don't conflict with the rhythm instruments, whether they be guitar, piano or whatever. I EQ a lot. I try to keep everything in the - 12db range and a straight line across. Sometimes the highs are a little higher but not much.
And what do you mean by you put everything to -12db? You match everything up on SPAN at -12db? What slope are you using? -12db straight across can differ depending on your slope. I think the default slope is 4.50. All the professional techno and house songs Ive referenced on span are 5-6 on master slope.
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- KVRist
- 360 posts since 26 Oct, 2018
Applying eq curves from different songs to yours might be tricky as each song is a little different. Maybe one is more bassline focused, or other has a melody in a different octave or what not. Thats why I just stick to matching the highs/lows with the general starting slope in SPAN, then go from there and work everything in the middle to sit in nicely, then go back and do minor tweaks. Think matching the slope on SPAN gives you the general idea, and is less likely to make you commit to a wrong EQ curve.SoundPorn wrote: ↑Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:11 am You're probably better off just getting a spectrum matcher like Melda Auto EQ or I think Fab ProQ3 does it too. Just take the curves from an already mastered song and apply it to yours.
Me I personally don't care how my reading matchup because I'm going for a different sound anyway. If will all you know about audio engineering it sounds good to you then it's going to sound good to the 99% of people who know nothing about it.
I dont care about an exact matchup, but I do reference the low/high matchup for the slope, and the general “W” shape (when using 5.5 master slope, give or take .5)