AGAIN about channel volumes

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I tend to keep my channel volume at around -12dB.

Which one YOU think is better: bringing the volume down from mixer slider, or bringing the levels down from the synth/audiofile while fader sits at 0dB?

Or maybe let the synth/audio play at the volume it plays, but adjust the volume with some separate tool like Sonimus Satson? Or compressor?

What is the best way to work audio wise and why?

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In the digital domain it really doesn't matter much. Pick/find a method that works for you and then, importantly, be consistent in using that method as it will become your reference point from which to make decisions. The only time you might have to pay attention is when you use plugins that emulate analog gain staging.

My main working method is to have a VU meter on the master and keep it hovering at 0 for the overall mix (which is -18dBFS). As long as this is the case I really couldn't care less where the individual faders/output volumes of the plugins are sitting. In 32 floating point math DAW's it really doesn't matter much. For practical reasons though it makes sense to work so that you have plenty of 'throw' left on each channel fader if you do need to start increasing relative gains etc.
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do_androids_dream wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:34 am The only time you might have to pay attention is when you use plugins that emulate analog gain staging.
Why exactly? I know something about it but I'd like to hear your knowledge of it.
do_androids_dream wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:34 amIn 32 floating point math DAW's it really doesn't matter much.
This I don't understand. If I keep channel volume max at 0dB, the master channel starts to distort when enough stuff is playing. Of course limiter can prevent this but it changes the sound so I tend to keep volumes at -12dB and limiter only grabs some of the wildest lonely peaks.
do_androids_dream wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:34 amFor practical reasons though it makes sense to work so that you have plenty of 'throw' left on each channel fader if you do need to start increasing relative gains etc.
By having fader at 0 and adjust the volume from plugin or fader at for example -12?

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Distorted Horizon wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:49 am
do_androids_dream wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:34 am The only time you might have to pay attention is when you use plugins that emulate analog gain staging.
Why exactly? I know something about it but I'd like to hear your knowledge of it.
Because analog devices work only in a specific signal range. They may distort heavily when overdriven, or do nothing at all beyond their designed operation range.
In 32 floating point math DAW's it really doesn't matter much.
It gives you extra amplitude resolution (or less quantization noise), which allows you to attenuate and boost audio freely without running into artifacts or noise. Effective audible range uses only a portion of these 32 bits, so all errors introduced occur outside of audible range.

...that assumes you understand why, let's say, 16-bit or analog audio has its limits in first place. :ud:
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Distorted Horizon wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:49 am
do_androids_dream wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:34 am The only time you might have to pay attention is when you use plugins that emulate analog gain staging.
Why exactly? I know something about it but I'd like to hear your knowledge of it.
These plugins include saturation processes that will depend on the level coming into them. Higher input level leads to more distortion. Typically these plugins are calibrated for about -18 dB RMS input (and we complain when they aren't because it's confusing!) Linear and time-based effects like digital EQ or chorus should have no such dependence on overall level so you can use pretty much any level you like.

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Distorted Horizon wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:49 am
do_androids_dream wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:34 amIn 32 floating point math DAW's it really doesn't matter much.
This I don't understand. If I keep channel volume max at 0dB, the master channel starts to distort when enough stuff is playing. Of course limiter can prevent this but it changes the sound so I tend to keep volumes at -12dB and limiter only grabs some of the wildest lonely peaks.
You probably have level-dependent effects on your master bus (e.g. a limiter!) so need to watch the level going into these. If your track count is typically so high that even tracks at -18 RMS are giving a mix that is too hot, I'd pad it with a trim plug-in at the start of your master chain. Airwindows bitshiftgain is handy for this kind of thing.

If your overall output level exceeds 0dB FS, it's up to your DAW/OS/interface to decide how to deal with that. One of them is probably going to clip it.

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imrae wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:20 am
These plugins include saturation processes that will depend on the level coming into them. Higher input level leads to more distortion. Typically these plugins are calibrated for about -18 dB RMS input (and we complain when they aren't because it's confusing!)
Sooooo are you saying that for example analog modeling compressor sounds "better" if the sound coming from a synth is lower on volume? Unless one wants distortion of course.

And same for synths like Sylenth1 for example.. Sound goes distorted if output is pushed to red?
imrae wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:27 am
If your overall output level exceeds 0dB FS, it's up to your DAW/OS/interface to decide how to deal with that. One of them is probably going to clip it.
That is exactly what I don't understand.. Props published a video where this guy is telling "no worries if your channel goes to red".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... -TpPLzRpsU

And now that I watched it, I'm like "oh, he meant that". So in DAW sound can't distort but only stage vulnerable is when the sound leaves the DAW.
Someone sometime said that it's not a good way to deal with clipping to turn the master volume down because I don't really know why he said that. Now I'd really like to know why it isn't :D

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You need to think about optimal levels when gain staging. The audio processors you use will dictate the required amplitude - or whether you need to worry about input level at all.

Based on what you have written above, I would also [suggest that you] read up on signal flow.
Last edited by Unaspected on Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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it's really simple.

on the output, a floating-point DAW will not clip the audio, because most modern OS's also use floating-point internal sound format. so any clipping on the master channel you'll actually hear is analog clipping (i.e. your audio interface going into overdrive), not digital clipping.

on individual tracks, it depends on which FX you are using. some FX are sensitive to input levels (e.g. an analog-modeled EQ), some aren't (e.g. a digital EQ). if you think overdriving an analog EQ sounds better than going into it with a lower level - do that. there's no universal "better" way to determine which levels you should hit a plugin with. just use your ears.

TL;DR
for some FX, levels don't matter.
for other FX, use your ears.
don't clip your master, even if it doesn't sound like it's clipping (it will once you do your mixdown).
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I've heard this "don't touch master volume" rule second-hand a few times. I believe it refers to the master volume control after the mix-bus - which as Burillo says it won't help with clipping when you render the track.

Playing with the pre-render mix-bus fader (in REAPER this is the volume fader on "MASTER") is a good way of getting headroom before mastering. However, it would be a daft thing to do if you have brickwall limiting or clipping set up on that bus, because you would be making the track quieter without increasing the usable headroom - or boosting the signal into uncontrolled clipping.

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Distorted Horizon wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:49 am
do_androids_dream wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:34 am The only time you might have to pay attention is when you use plugins that emulate analog gain staging.
Why exactly? I know something about it but I'd like to hear your knowledge of it.
As some have already mentioned, some plugins emulate saturation at high gain levels.
Distorted Horizon wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:49 am
do_androids_dream wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:34 amIn 32 floating point math DAW's it really doesn't matter much.
This I don't understand. If I keep channel volume max at 0dB, the master channel starts to distort when enough stuff is playing. Of course limiter can prevent this but it changes the sound so I tend to keep volumes at -12dB and limiter only grabs some of the wildest lonely peaks.
'0dB' on your channel volume is actually a pretty meaningless thing in and of itself - it depends on the level of the recording you're working with or the output level of the synth.. Basically, balance everything in your song so that you still have around 6dB of headroom on your master output and you shouldn't have to worry about any of this. It doesn't matter where you faders are.

I think it would really benefit you to watch a good video on gain staging (I'm much better with visuals than just having the theory explained).
Last edited by do_androids_dream on Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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imrae wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:44 pm I've heard this "don't touch master volume" rule second-hand a few times. I believe it refers to the master volume control after the mix-bus - which as Burillo says it won't help with clipping when you render the track.

Playing with the pre-render mix-bus fader (in REAPER this is the volume fader on "MASTER") is a good way of getting headroom before mastering. However, it would be a daft thing to do if you have brickwall limiting or clipping set up on that bus, because you would be making the track quieter without increasing the usable headroom - or boosting the signal into uncontrolled clipping.
It's just a good, sensible rule to never touch the fader on your final, master output. If you do, it will make your limiter output meaningless and problematic. There's a good case for not having a fader on the master - so many new to music production run into problems when they start using their master fader as a volume control.
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Burillo wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:15 pm TL;DR
for some FX, levels don't matter.
for other FX, use your ears.
don't clip your master, even if it doesn't sound like it's clipping (it will once you do your mixdown).
Okay this was simple enough :D

But I had another question popping in my mind. There's lots of arguing about VU vs peak vs PPM..
I adjust the volume with combination of VU and peak and ear. What would be the best method? RMS is what I'm most interested but peak is useful since (for me) it shows if a track needs some compressing. Some exceptions are of course, like closed hats.

Is there any method that'd be more new/accurate/useful?

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imrae wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:44 pm I've heard this "don't touch master volume" rule second-hand a few times. I believe it refers to the master volume control after the mix-bus - which as Burillo says it won't help with clipping when you render the track.
I always bounce my whole project as separate stems.. I believe that if my tracks would go red, it'd kinda ruin them.

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do_androids_dream wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:49 pm There's a good case for not having a fader on the master - so many new to music production run into problems when they start using their master fader as a volume control.
I like this idea :D Maybe combine it with the Logic/Garageband thing of having a master playback volume control that is nowhere near your mixer controls and has a different UI.

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