KVR Audio

jantzen · Post by **jantzen** » Sat Dec 24, 2005 5:59 pm

I'm having a slight problem here. I have a grand piano in a small square room with no treatment, apart from carpeted floor, 2 x SM58 and Behringer Mixer and an Audiophile.

I've tried various position, but I guess SM58 is just not a suitable mic for a piano. So any help recording-wise or processing-wise would be appreciated.

thx

P.S. Ah..and merry xmas to all of you.

vurt · Post by **vurt** » Sat Dec 24, 2005 6:04 pm

for a grand piano you need at least 3 mics,think about the sound as a whole its not just any one part of the piano.
you need to catch all the freqs for a realistic sound this means multimicing.
there would be better mics for the job yes.but you have sm58s so...

with two mics id suggest you look for the sweetest spots in the room which means walkin round while someone plays to get the best places.
it will sound good but chances are tho you are never going to get the sound to be "perfect"

RZ · Post by RZ » Mon Dec 26, 2005 3:24 pm

I am no engineer - I think the piano is one of the most difficult instruments to record. Are you more interested in getting the punchy sounds of the machine? or the sweet sounds that fill the room?

I had a similar to setup. Grand Piano. Small Hall. SM-58s and a stereo pair of condensor mics.

Luckily -I was only using one octave of the piano.
I put a SM-58 one foot above the above the strings facing down, and then mixed in the stereo pair of mics that were about 10 feet away pointed - 8 feet high pointed at the top of the piano.

This was the best take I could come up with. the SnR isn't too strong.

http://www.ncob.net/mp3s/cvg1.mp3

This atricle might help:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may99/a ... cpiano.htm

mark77 · Post by **mark77** » Mon Dec 26, 2005 3:45 pm

i dont mean to be rude, but isnt it inappropriate to be talking about this on a site that is all about virtual instruments? I mean there are so mnay piano emulations out there, not to nention all the multisamples and sample libraries, most of them great sounding and very cost effective, and yet here u are trying to do things the old fashioned way. which is fair enough.. but i mean couldnt u find instructions for this anywhere else on the net!? if i were u i'd just get edirol orchestral (nice piano sound in there) .. or wait for the next big thing.......

robenestobenz · Post by **robenestobenz** » Mon Dec 26, 2005 4:04 pm

mark77 wrote:i dont mean to be rude, but isnt it inappropriate to be talking about this on a site that is all about virtual instruments? I mean there are so mnay piano emulations out there, not to nention all the multisamples and sample libraries, most of them great sounding and very cost effective, and yet here u are trying to do things the old fashioned way. which is fair enough.. but i mean couldnt u find instructions for this anywhere else on the net!? if i were u i'd just get edirol orchestral (nice piano sound in there) .. or wait for the next big thing.......

No, it's not inappropriate. Not on forums where people like alpha labs roam, and where conversation rarely stays on track for more than a moment anyway. It's not a bad thing, either.

kritikon · Post by **kritikon** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 4:01 pm

Errrrrrrr....I thought Production Techniques included the finer points of mic'ing?

Get a sampler instead of using a real grand? Why on earth would he dream of doing that? You may as well say, use Synth1 instead of a Waldorf Wave.

gareth_fx · Post by **gareth_fx** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:26 pm

You arent going to be getting a particularly good sound out of 58's no matter where you place them for recording piano.

If you really want to record piano then I suggest buying a cheap pair of pencil condensors from SE or Sontronix.

These will at least give you the top end and capture the detail you require. Unless the room sounds 'good' it is better to close mic the piano. I would suggest as a good starting point the mics are placed with the front of the mics just inside the area of the 'lid' of the piano (obviously open) pointing with one mic aiming roughly in the middle of the dampers and the 2nd mic aiming more towards the bass end of the sound board.

This will get you a fairly decent sound without to much roomyness. Avoid micing to close or you will end up with certain notes being louder than others or a lot of damper noise.

Unfortunatly 58's whilst very useable on a lot of things voice/drums/electric guitars etc. do not have the top end response or sensitivity to capture acoustic instruments well.

Cheers

GFX

robogone · Post by **robogone** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 5:57 pm

Another alternative for mic'ing a piano is a pair of PZMs. If you tape them to the bottom of the lid, each one approximately a quarter piano width from the ends and above a line through the center of the piano (parallel to keyboard) you will get very little effect from the room, and a very full sound. You can always emulate various room sounds later at the production stage.

jantzen · Post by **jantzen** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 7:28 pm

Cool, thanks a lot. I've been close-micking the piano with the two SM58s i've got, and I'm not too satisfied with it. Could have been some phase issues, but I'm not too sure just yet.. perhaps the only way out is better mics.

james0tucson · Post by **james0tucson** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 7:31 pm

Put a PZM inside the lid, over the bridge, and close it. This is a great live solution, by the way.

jupiter8 · Post by **jupiter8** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 7:31 pm

Trust me , you won't get a good piano recording out of a pair of SM 58s. You'll need to get some condenser mics. The difference is just staggering. Even with a real cheap condenser. Night and day!

Landphil · Post by **Landphil** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:59 pm

Here's a .pdf and a link that may be helpful on mic placement:

http://www.musica.ufpr.br/material/grav ... 0Piano.pdf

http://www.saecollege.de/reference_mate ... /Piano.htm

I can't help much on mic choices, tho I did see the PZM technique mentioned in both articles.

How can this sound good?