Learning scales/chords online? music school?

[Forgotten]

Take a really simple example; You start a song with a G, then you move to a C chord and at this moment in time our ears are telling us that C is our tonic.

Not at all. You don’t have enough information at that point to make that determination.

But, if we play a D after the C, followed by G, the music tells us we are in the key of G.

How do you know it’s G and not Em, or if you’ve used a secondary chord and it’s neither in G or Em?

Had I chosen my 'scale' as C, I would never reach the point where I could drop the D chord to shift perspective to G.

Yes you could, you could have modulated to G Major.

If I'd played Gm, C, well, because I'm familiar with the pattern of chords and intervals in the scales, I see root movement of a 5th from a minor to a major chord. Immediate instincts point to this being two chords in a ii,V,I sequence, so I know I can play with this for a while and add an F for a twist later on, or, relative that b**ch up and use a Dm.

The interval between the root of each of those chords in not a 5th, it’s a 4th.

Wouldn’t it be a lot easier to just learn to analyze harmony rather than limit yourself to the learning chord sequences one by one? This seems very limiting with no real benefit to it.

It would also mean you would know the term diatonic vi rather than “relative that b**ch up”, which communicates nothing of use to anyone

You could say that in these two examples, the key was the key from the beginning, but I prefer to leave the key undecided until the music finds it's own key.

Every composer can wait to determine key after they have started playing, but I don’t think you are doing yourself any favors by actively avoiding making a decision on key. Knowing which key you are tending towards can help guide you in composing, particularly if you want to move beyond the chord sequences you have learned by rote.

Essentially, I'm just an advocate of the Circle of 5ths, and it's not really concerned with scales.

I think you totally misunderstand the purpose of a circle of fifths if you think it’s not concerned with scales.

Overall I think you’re trying to compensate for gaps in your theory knowledge, but it’s not very successful based on some of the erroneous comments you’ve made above.

[Stamped Records]

I'm fully aware of the fact that a key is still open and undecided - that is my point. If I'd chosen C major as my key, my D would be Dm and it would point to C. The fact that I am actually aware of the range of keys available to me at any given point, is the whole point of what I'm saying.

The fact that I could use Em instead of G is information that I consider intrinsic to a person who knows theory. I don't look at Em and G as being separate keys. Em is a function of G and it doesn't need to be specifically stated.

A 5th is an inverted 4th, they are harmonic equivalents. At this point I'm really beginning to consider your own understanding.

I have actually studied harmony. Oh come on man, you can't be serious. You're gonna assume based on the millions of words that I haven't written, that I don't know a million words?

I'm perfectly aware of the degrees of my key and the myriad of linguistics used to mention them.

You are concerned with finding technical errors in what I'm saying and you are reaching for very silly things to try and get the result you want. Please drop it man.

[Stamped Records]

I'm writing something now, and for simplicity I am writing down my chords because I intend to improvise an arrangement when I have thought about my path through harmony.

I started with an arpeggio on the Am chord as an approach to beginning a melody. I tried Am as a chord for backing/rhythm but it didn't have the feeling I was looking for so I dropped the left hand down to an F and found suitable voicing for an F7 chord. I found two nice voicings of this chord for the intro in the end up.

The next act of my song/story starts with F7 and moves to a mixture of notes from Bb and Gm in the melody, while the backing chord is Gm. The chord is obscured a little in this way. It's like an arp, but I've added a secondary related chord to the arp sequence.

So far the chords I have got are, F, Gm, Am and Bb. Based on the relationships between these chords I'm seeking another chord.

What I could have here is a I, ii, IV, in which case C is a pretty good bet for a V chord (or indeed it's relative minor, the vi of V) or, I could say at any given moment in time, that Gm is the vi of I and that I want to point to the key of Bb, in which case I might use an Eb chord to facilitate the modulation through an F and back to Bb as a IV, V, I progression in my new key. The Eb being the defining note (and chord of the new key). This actually has a nice effect but the shift from Bb to Eb is quite a large contrast in the beginning . The F does lead back to the Bb very nicely but I don't think the Eb is what I'm looking for. I might use the Eb later and transition to Gm instead of Bb, because that Eb has a dark effect and maybe it will be useful for the darkest section of my song.

I've looped back over myself and gone to test the Eb as part of my opening sequence, to see if I want to begin in the key of Eb and never mind modulating. That gives me a dominant 7th chord as the opening and points directly to Bb. It's something interesting as an option. What I'm trying to convey in the beginning of this particular track is mystery, and I do want a sudden and pleasant shift from mystery to excitement so this might be an option.

I've not yet used the relative minor of F, so Dm is an option to explore, either as the vi of I in the key of F, or as a iii of I in the key of Bb.

I find it useful to think of harmony in terms of first forming a relationship between two chords, discerning what that relationship is based on an awareness of the patterns of western tonality.

[Forgotten]

I think you’re losing sight of what the OP asked, and describing your own approach probably isn’t helpful, as it’s not particularly well aligned with a conventional approach.

You’re right, I am concerned with finding technical errors in what you post, as it doesn’t serve the OP well to see those errors.

[jancivil]

Had I chosen my 'scale' as C, I would never reach the point where I could drop the D chord to shift perspective to G.

You're describing nothing but a lack of competence. Just stop talking. We shouldn't have to correct this much nonsense.

[jancivil]

To make something happen, eg., start with scale of C and move to a G-centric area, you make a musical argument that works.
Every classical composer who ever was has started in C and modulated to G at some point, surely.

There is an harmonic device for this, which is known as a modulation: V of f**king G. Or G minor. The strength of your argument hinges on F# as a pivot in this case, the strong line compelling G tonic. Then how a D7's F# and C resolves normally to G.
There are other things one can do but all this is is a modulation to the very closest possible area.

The strength of a change of mode hinges on the compelling argument for that matter. Depends what in the new area you want, one can foreshadow an event for example. It's writing.

It appears you know from D chord, but you would never reach it.
It's like that joke where somebody asks directions and gets 'Well... thing is, you can't get there from here.'


Shouldn't become anybody else's problem; yet, uncorrected your disease is communicated.

[Stamped Records]

LOL. Ok people, there is only one way, to understand, and it's your way. Kind regards.

[Stamped Records]

Nobody says you must modulate with a Vdom7.

[Forgotten]

LOL. Ok people, there is only one way, to understand, and it's your way. Kind regards.

It’s not anyone’s way - it’s the culmination of many hundreds of years work to reach conventions. There might be other ways, but I hardly think a person asking for advice on theory is going to really want to hear about left field theories based on an incomplete understanding of harmony.

[jancivil]

This is just basic stuff. You can't see your way clear to get to a f**king D major chord to set up a modulation to G because you feel C major scale is a stymie. Yeah, stay as Dunning-Kruger as f**k, why would anyone bother with you from here on? And you have the gall to assert shit and be argumentative.

It's sure not my way _or_ an opinion, I'm telling you the real deal from experience. You're a beginner, why posture?
People go to other key or color areas no problem; your weird difficulties are all you.

The signal is loud and clear, you think you have stuff sussed you're very far from having and at this time where you should listen to people you can't stand to. Become self-aware enough to know where you are and where you stand in the wider world. Except with no legs you ain't standing, you're stuck in your pram.

[Stamped Records]

I never said I 'can't'.

You've interpreted it that way.

[Stamped Records]

The thing is, a beginner doesn't know what modulation is. A beginner doesn't see a key as a fluid thing, so, I wouldn't go teaching a beginner a scale in the very beginning. I'd mention it, and I'd get to chords and intervals, voicing, inversions, then I'd talk about how melody relates to the chord before getting messy about how it doesn't need to relate to the chord. It's a tidy, structured (f**k the convention if it doesn't help) kind of approach.

If a person who knew nothing about music were to sit down beside me for a while, they'd get up feeling like they just saw something that made sense. You guys would be so busy complicating things with conventions that they'd learn nothing that's practical or useful to them for 6 months.

[Forgotten]

I wouldn't go teaching a beginner a scale in the very beginning. I'd mention it, and I'd get to chords and intervals, voicing, inversions, then I'd talk about how melody relates to the chord

Then you would be doing things backwards from everyone else who ever taught music. There’s a reason why teachers will teach the concept of scales early on, but for some reason you think you know better.

If a person who knew nothing about music were to sit down beside me for a while, they'd get up feeling like they just saw something that made sense.

I wouldn’t recommend it based on your incomplete understanding of harmony and the numerous misapprehensions you hold on to so tightly.

I don’t get why you’re so insistent on being the only one who is right and everyone else is wrong.

[Stamped Records]

I'm not actually the one here saying that I'm right and everybody is wrong. Anyone reading this topic can see that I'm only putting forward an alternative approach and I'm putting it forward as that very thing.

I do find it better to think in terms of chords and intervals, with an in-the-moment awareness of what is 'home' a.k.a. the tonic. I'm not saying forget about scale, because to have a tonic, to be aware of home means I am aware of the scale because the scale is formed from the home chord. So, to be aware of home is to be aware of your scale and I would lead somebody towards the understanding through chords and intervals and the circle of 5ths. That's the way I would have liked to learn.

Perhaps it's because I'm not really a player, that I see it this way. If you were learning theory whilst playing (which is as it naturally happens most of the time) then it would make sense to learn scales very well so that you can play songs freely in those scales. But as a non-player, perhaps that's a genuine reason for thinking beyond some of the conventions that are really for players moreso than non-players.

If you want to pick holes in the black and white of what I say, feel free, but it's really pointless and frankly anti-music to be so aggressive with conventions. To say that I'm a beginner, just because I jumble the process up a bit and maybe I haven't got my grammar down to a fine 'classically-trained' t, that's just being an outright twaat towards the hard work and effort that people put into learning these things on their own, and what's worse than that, you're trying to stand in the way of people who might learn from me just because your conventions aren't met. I've taught people, I've seen their faces light up.

[vurt]

arent chords formed from scales rather than scales from chords?