Does Melody Even Matter??

[fmr]

BUT (replying to jan) I've seen people that say jazz is superior to classical music because in jazz people improvise, while in classical players "just play what's written"

seems odd calling one style superior to another, surely theyre meant for different things?

I never knew what was meant, because when that point is reached, conversation ends right there.

Nor do I care.

[jancivil]

--- where is the edit button

[jancivil]

Well, I never said that. You asserted that jazz stopped evolving 50 yrs ago, which puts us late 60s, I don't know how you know that, and I've seen you say crap all along for years which resembles that. That isn't about having a conversation, it's an assertion yourself that 'academic' music, of all things does something jazz can't do, once again. 'when that point is reached', right. Actually I engaged the point acknowledging Satie having done something jazzers discovered 70 some yrs hence.
I'm a gigantic fan of Stravinsky but if he is supposed to be omnipotent, apparently not. So...
You seem to be wanting to call me out on something you did, actually. I'm not even sure what you are on about there, though.

not all people admire those that are able to transcribe a piece and/or play it as written down.
Well, the thing that happened here was "Musicologo" claiming there are people who transcribe improvisation and play it straight off the page as though like "classical music" in order to draw a comparison which argued some people act superior - this was the context - to others. I never experienced that; it looks like it's directed at me somewhat and I don't think he knows what he's on about.

If I was making some argument from my own position, I'm not a very good jazz improviser, but I can write in the vocabulary.
The dichotomy between improvising and composing is false, basically, though.

If there are indeed people who can't admire the prowess there musically, I suppose from an ideological disposition, they have their head up their ass.

[jancivil]

I can't be the big snob here, I've had a country band with an honest-to-god redneck on pedal steel
Who I learned some things from, NB.

[IncarnateX]

I can't be the big snob here, I've had a country band with an honest-to-god redneck on pedal steel
Who I learned some things from, NB.

Uh I am almost more worried I am too anti-snobish to be considered musically cultivated at all with preferences that includes such examples as DAF, Front 242, Nitzer Ebb, Yazoo, Depeche Mode, various James Bond scores, The Andrews Sisters, Steely Dan, Sade, Mozart, Bethooven, Palestrina and more. And this without the slightest sense for artistic discrimination.

However, the straw I cling to to preserve a tiny portion of self respect is that I do not listen to modern pop music and haven’t for decades. Besides, Eurovision contest pop tends to make me feel sick.

EDIT: And though Andrew Sisters may seem lighthearted and an unserious popularization of Jazz, they are a core example of how perfect harmonization and timing can melt different voices into one (in contrast to the goal of polyphony) without auto-tune and harmonizers. Not art maybe, but still excellent performance.

[trevgreg]

I come up with some pretty decent instrumentals all the time, but I know from experience that a lack of a good melody (instrumental or vocally) can kill it. At least for me anyway. Even with complete songs, I'm always checking out ways to make the melodies better more than anything.

[IncarnateX]

One comment more to my previous post: When I think of it, I have a harder time to believe that people can restrict themselves to one genre and not be taken by different instances from other. This among other thing due to our cultural exposere to melodies. Or what?

E.g. I am not into rock as such (but closer to Jazz-rock and fusion if any at all), but I had my Heavy Metal period and still think Iron Maiden’s The Number of the Beast and is one cool ride among other “Evergreens”. How about you? Do you manage to convince your brains that you are too cultivated to be seduced by catchy melodies from other genres and just go with them?

Apropos, I think this one is fit to recapitulate some on the recent thread history

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlvDXOuBvLo

Though, I like this one much better. It is catchy to my brain and there is a lot more going on musically:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-q2UquiCRw

[IncarnateX]

Wait, I have been into progrock-pop too but I must say the instrumentation here reach intellectual levels, in contrast to Accept’s deep ass rock scheme and lyrics. This is performance indeed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYt7dWb2knc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKEefEng_WY

And the big hit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J0QdXBY0wo

And once again: catchy melodies are what first brings my attention to this, not genre.

BTW: Ozzy Osborne sings “The winner takes it all” by ABBA to himself when there is no one in sight. He has deep respect for it and said in a TV show something like: “imagine to write such a melody”. He knows his limits as far as that art concerns.

BTW - BTW: It is with musical genres as with the different sciences to me; if you cannot help your A from evaluating their worth instead of just engaging in their games, at least evaluate them on their own terms.

[IncarnateX]

One last thing and then I shut it. In Denmark, fusion of classical music and experimental ambient came early with this scene from the “Olson Gang” (1976). A serie of films about a couble of losers with a leader who always has a genious plan to steal millions but always fails under the bureaucracy of society. Here they are about to reach the cabin of a servant in the Danish Royal Theatre under the ouverture to Friedrich Kuhlau’s “Elves Hill”:

Please pay close attention to the conductor and the orchestra. Before this scene, we have just seen the conducter’s angry eyes on the orchestra because they seemed bored, especially the perc section:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuAevxbgjc8

[jancivil]

I like best music to transcend genre tags.

This rolls modal melodic, almost an ancient vibe, math rock, Arabic and Indian rhythm incl some of the cross-rhythms Zappa was into, and jazz piano and a swing time thing into one; FUSION

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7j7bdEPSd0\


without coming off as pastiche

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

Some music benefits from melody, while other music has no need for it

[jancivil]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VOZLG-FlvI

[IncarnateX]

Wow that intro was very beautiful, Jan. Then things happened...

As far as mix of genres concern I cannot catch up on that level beyond Jazz-rock. Though, I when medieval Scandinavian folkmusic is fused with electronica like in these Danish pearls from the band Sorten Muld (Black Soil). Melodies from the middle ages, though some reconstructed in style due to lost originals. The lyrics are original and based on Northern mythology.

There are also inspirations from Jazz, lots of accoustic instruments mixed with electro sounds here. And it is all about the melodies, of course:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nC1wI093WII

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3fT_itbpE0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVVvWS1Cszw

Beautiful. I am so much running with Freya on the green fields of Aasgard.

[IncarnateX]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7j7bdEPSd0

Missed this at first. Very cool.Especially when the vocals kicks in. However, is it fair to say that the music overall is a little “abruptive”?

[jancivil]

he doesn't mind radical changes.

I haven't been this excited about a music in a long time. f**king genius
I've listened to it five times today