The minor scale.

[Stamped Records]

For the longest time I perceived the natural minor, the melodic minor and the harmonic minor to be different scales altogether, perhaps on some level its sensible to think this way.

However, if we take all of the above to be variations on the same scale, how far can that go?

Would it be fair to simply say that the minor scale allows us the freedom to choose the 6th and 7th scale degree or does that place too little focus on how it might be used.

I understand the need for a leading tone, and I really like switching a chord from major to minor, I could almost do that all day.

I count 14 possible chords in the minor scale with this unfocussed view?

Thoughts? Insights?

[jancivil]

"how it might be used" seems like an open question. In Common Practice Period, harmonic, tonal music the leading tone is first of all harmonic suiting the dominant/tonic paradigm.

And such as JS Bach used the ascending sharp, descending 'natural' form melodically. It's all contextual. But the context for those questions is tonal music and conventional; you may do whatever suits you, if you want to move beyond convention. True that minor key passages open the composer up to color sticking to major will not, even axiomatically.

[jancivil]

Harmonic minor as a scale outside of harmony is used in ethnic musics, modally I mean.

[fmr]

Would it be fair to simply say that the minor scale allows us the freedom to choose the 6th and 7th scale degree.

It is fair, since it is exactly what it is.

I understand the need for a leading tone, and I really like switching a chord from major to minor, I could almost do that all day.

The need for the leading tone is only because of the V (dominant) function. You can establish the minor mode without that (it will not be so strong tonally, but that may be an advantage, depending on what you do with it).

I count 14 possible chords in the minor scale with this unfocussed view?

DON'T. Search for all the melodic possibilities that the different variations open to you, and don't try to come up with a chord for each note combination. That's plainly stupid. Baroque composers created wonderful music with just a handful of chords (and they were the ones that come up with tonality).

You can create wonderful music with just three chords.

[fmr]

Harmonic minor as a scale outside of harmony is used in ethnic musics, modally I mean.

There is also another variant, the Hungarian minor AKA Gypsy minor, and another mode/scale which some call major, although, to me, it sounds more as a minor than a major mode: the Double Harmonic Scale, which I learned as the Arabic scale.

[jancivil]

Yeah, I probably first saw it called that. Bhairav raga uses it, oddly differing from its parent which has a minor third.
Some call it the major phrygian, not a name I'd use.

[tapper mike]

And then there is the melodic minor scale which is my preferred minor scale second only to the dorian mode.

As far as the ascending it's in one form and decending it takes on another. Fooey
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmRcg6ByrvE

Beato was educated in classical music and then taught jazz as a professor at Ithaca College for ten years before he became a Gold Record producer.

[fmr]

And then there is the melodic minor scale which is my preferred minor scale second only to the dorian mode.

As far as the ascending it's in one form and decending it takes on another. Fooey
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmRcg6ByrvE

Beato was educated in classical music and then taught jazz as a professor at Ithaca College for ten years before he became a Gold Record producer.

I cound't tell if he was being sarcastic, just joking, or plainly serious about it. But saying that the melodic minor isn't the melodic minor is plainly hilarious. And much more when he played a bunch of chords and called that Aeolian. That small video is pretty confusing

But I guess I am digressing, and perhaps that's what he was trying to achieve, to persuade people that they they need to know more. Except that, after watching that video, I wouldn't call him to know more.

Anyway, melodic minor has the second tetrachord major when ascending and minor when descending. That's why it is called "melodic". And that's it.

[jancivil]

What's the point? Worry about names?

Oh N/M, see below

[jancivil]

Ah, here's the rub:

You’re thinking way too much about it. There is no argument. It’s a joke.

[jancivil]

a lot of people do take this as a serious point at that page, tho

[fmr]

a lot of people do take this as a serious point at that page, tho

As I said, I wanted to believe he was joking, but I was afraid he was being serious

Glad he was joking, though.

[jancivil]

Harmonic minor as a scale outside of harmony is used in ethnic musics, modally I mean.

There is also another variant, the Hungarian minor AKA Gypsy minor, and another mode/scale which some call major, although, to me, it sounds more as a minor than a major mode: the Double Harmonic Scale, which I learned as the Arabic scale.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIU0RMV_II8

[MaxKurbatov]

[JumpingJackFlash]

For the longest time I perceived the natural minor, the melodic minor and the harmonic minor to be different scales altogether, perhaps on some level its sensible to think this way.

However, if we take all of the above to be variations on the same scale, how far can that go?

Would it be fair to simply say that the minor scale allows us the freedom to choose the 6th and 7th scale degree...

Yes, in a way. The only thing you appear to be missing is the distinction between "scale" and "key". There are several different minor scales but only one minor key (for any given tonic).

Historically, when composers were first writing tonal music, they didn't write in terms of scales; Bach for example didn't sit down and worry about whether he was using the melodic minor or the harmonic minor (these are theoretical abstractions that came later), he was just using minor.

And yes, within the minor key, the sixth and seventh degrees are variables (both versions of each are diatonic). Which one is used depends on context.

Or, to put it another way, the harmonic minor and the melodic minor are indeed different scales, but both are contained within the minor key.