Very basic two questions about chords and scales, please.
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- KVRian
- 607 posts since 6 Mar, 2005 from USA
Jan, I agree with you that there is little difference in notes between a Bdim and G7, or a Am7 and a C6, or any other near-misses. I bet we also agree that from the OP's view, as a beginner who doesn't yet understand what diatonic chords are, we need to avoid the subtleties working musicians like ourselves intuit. When we see a DFA noted in the key of C, depending on the preceding chord, I might not think "that's a Dm"; I might think "that's the upper structure of a C13". But it doesn't give traction to the new guy who just wants to know if, in the key of C, a Dmin chord belongs or a Dmaj belongs. (And like you, it kills me to write a Dmaj because we probably interpret that to mean a Dmaj7, but the OP isn't there yet).
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- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
I don't agree that it's time to tell a beginner a pseudo-fact about usage.
It is a fact that the vii chord, chord built on the 7th degree of the key of C major is B D F.
It's not a complicated or advanced chord in and of itself. The notion it's "rare" is 1) not really a fact and 2) an opinion on something not known (style). Maybe it's supposed to be all EDM or like that at this point? Even if this were true, why deny the usefulness of a particular phenomenon that occurs in the set, and this early?
It is a fact that the vii chord, chord built on the 7th degree of the key of C major is B D F.
It's not a complicated or advanced chord in and of itself. The notion it's "rare" is 1) not really a fact and 2) an opinion on something not known (style). Maybe it's supposed to be all EDM or like that at this point? Even if this were true, why deny the usefulness of a particular phenomenon that occurs in the set, and this early?
Last edited by jancivil on Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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- KVRian
- 607 posts since 6 Mar, 2005 from USA
Are you saying that diminished chords are commonly used, or are you saying that diminished chords have constructions that are very close to commonly-used seventh chords?
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- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
What do you want with the question 'are commonly used'? Statistics??
I mean what kind of music is our survey to be based in? It's not so uncommon, I would say without getting too far into the weeds.
I mean what kind of music is our survey to be based in? It's not so uncommon, I would say without getting too far into the weeds.
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- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
In pop music; in show tunes, Beatles, you-name-it; in classical music. In jazz. 
It may not be as common as Ice Cream Changes, I vi IV V, but I don't agree with isolating it as exotic at this juncture.
It may not be as common as Ice Cream Changes, I vi IV V, but I don't agree with isolating it as exotic at this juncture.-
- KVRian
- 607 posts since 6 Mar, 2005 from USA
Good points, and I agree with what you've written. I think it's just a difference in teaching philosophy we have. I find it helpful when teaching rank beginners something as complex as music theory, in which the theory just exists to support common usage, that it helps to frame things in terms of common usage. If he's asking questions about "what chords go with the key of C," saying "G major, F major, A minor, and D minor go really well" may be helpful.
It's true that diminished chords aren't terribly uncommon, and in jazz as you say they are almost the norm, but if the OP is trying to trying to figure out what diatonic chords are, he's a long way from constructing altered jazz chords. In popular music, for instance, they are significantly less common than the ones I listed above. I took a quick look at the top 3: High Hopes, Breathin, and Youngblood, and all have the ones I listed above as "common" and none had a diminished in any flavor. With roughly 75 chord changes in these top three the diminished would have a useage rate of less than 2% in chord changes, so for a newbie I'd say it is uncommon in pop songs. In my band's current setlist of roughly 100 classic rock songs, I'd say the 1-2% occurance is probably roughly right too. In the key of C playing these I might still use a B diminished as a passing chord, or just as an upper structure if the bassist is hanging on a G to make it a G7 as you wisely earlier noted...but these uses are probably just going to be confusing to a brand-new learner.
It's true that diminished chords aren't terribly uncommon, and in jazz as you say they are almost the norm, but if the OP is trying to trying to figure out what diatonic chords are, he's a long way from constructing altered jazz chords. In popular music, for instance, they are significantly less common than the ones I listed above. I took a quick look at the top 3: High Hopes, Breathin, and Youngblood, and all have the ones I listed above as "common" and none had a diminished in any flavor. With roughly 75 chord changes in these top three the diminished would have a useage rate of less than 2% in chord changes, so for a newbie I'd say it is uncommon in pop songs. In my band's current setlist of roughly 100 classic rock songs, I'd say the 1-2% occurance is probably roughly right too. In the key of C playing these I might still use a B diminished as a passing chord, or just as an upper structure if the bassist is hanging on a G to make it a G7 as you wisely earlier noted...but these uses are probably just going to be confusing to a brand-new learner.
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- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
The question whether or not you can do major triads on all seven notes of a major scale (just out of the word 'major')? I suppose so.
But as to say a question about chords in a minor key, the use of the dominant V, E major is certainly not illustrated by the circle of fifths per se.
Making the default minor triads into major may function tonally (ie., without necessarily exceeding the defined key). D major as seen in the original post, it may function as a secondary dominant, V of V (V being the chord 'G major').
And so on.
And the chief facts were pretty much covered before you decided to post that, funnily enough.
