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jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:23 am

The fundamental idea in resolving the question of <Dreams, is it Lydian> can be summed up in this statement:

"if F were a I ('tonic') chord this would be Lydian mode, in that it's static enough."
And I'd said, the melody does not seem to support that. Modal music is melodic, rather than harmonic.

Versus: In Yesterday, the B moves to C# in the obvious melodic minor move to tonic for a brief modulation to tonicization of D minor, a very common move in classical music.
This, obvious tonal harmonic function, is not modal, in any sense.

In these discussions, a couple things come in from two different sides; 1) the old Roman Church modal polyphony and here there is more ambiguity since there are moves which foreshadow tonality. The so-called musica ficta of for instance Bb in avoidance of B in "mode of F".
While I'm coming from very static practice more or less appropriated from Indian (or, to a lesser sense perhaps, Arabic) music. So F Lydian sits on F, we know F is home; first order of business is B, its character tone in relation to F.
(Then, I would note things like the 'ladder of fifths' present, focusing on B E A.)

So as far as I can hear it, this never happens in 'Dreams'. The melody centers in A, there isn't any F and B is rare.

That's the best I can do. I think these sentences are clear.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:42 am

someone called simon wrote: ↑Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:33 am
The verse of this is possibly maybe definitely lydian... then the chorus goes to the ii, minor, so that stops the Lydian-ness of it all. But, nicely, some of the harmonies feature the sharp 7 of that chord, making it sound like the new tonic.

No, there is no sharp 4 in the melody of the verse. I think you're hearing the emphasis on the major seven
In the Yaman raga, I do that frequently until I sing it. But in the Bjork there's no #4.

Interesting song though.

Musicologo · Post by **Musicologo** » Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:02 pm

Not exacly Lydian, but I'm showing how it is possible in Popular music to make songs outside of tonal realms, I think I managed to do a nice song that works, it anyone cares to even figure out what I did here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXJac7tKipg

nordickvr · Post by **nordickvr** » Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:48 pm

Sounds like based on diminish scale and Maj b5 chords?

someone called simon · Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:34 am

jancivil wrote: ↑Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:42 am
someone called simon wrote: ↑Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:33 am
The verse of this is possibly maybe definitely lydian... then the chorus goes to the ii, minor, so that stops the Lydian-ness of it all. But, nicely, some of the harmonies feature the sharp 7 of that chord, making it sound like the new tonic.
No, there is no sharp 4 in the melody of the verse. I think you're hearing the emphasis on the major seven
In the Yaman raga, I do that frequently until I sing it. But in the Bjork there's no #4.

Interesting song though.

Hmmm, I'm gonna have challenge that!

Here's my rationale: The song starts with a B chord (B maj7 really), the only chord in the verse, setting up that as the key, in my mind. The first melody note is E#, the melody is E# D# F#

Now, if I listen to the melody without the chord underneath, I agree it does sound like a melody in the key of F#. So, I was thinking Ok maybe it can't be Lydian if the melody doesn't contain that root/sharp 4 tension somewhere. Which is like the argument against the Fleetwood Mac song. However while F doesn't sound like the tonic for that song, I think B does sound like the tonic for the Bjork song.

THEN... the proof! In the second verse, there is a vocal line "possibly maybe, probably love", the melody of which is E# D# E# F#, C# B A# B ... it resolves on B, and establishes that as the tonic, to my ear.

Of course the chorus then changes things around and the E# becomes E natural, over a C#m, which while it cancels out the lydian, does suggest B as the key over F#.

I rest my case ...

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:50 pm

yep, there it is, you are right. The first melody notes are those and before that B is established firmly as home.
I must've spaced out, I remember focusing later in the song, doing too many things at once. My mistake.

and I think rather than 'B^7 chord' it's more kind of pandiatonic, and it didn't feel Lydian, that E#.

someone called simon · Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:53 pm

Phew, I'm not going insane after all.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:54 pm

Still doesn't *feel* very Lydian to me. But in terms of fact, B is home and E# is part of the formation of the tune, period.

excuse me please · Post by **excuse me please** » Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:56 pm

Lydian bass line in the verse:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZavJLr5Otq4

sslyutov · Post by **sslyutov** » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:24 pm

easy to remember -
If you put modes in the following order:
Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian
You can use only white keys and change the first note of the scale to get corresponding mode.
for instance:
start from C - Ionian,
start from D - Dorian,
start from E - Phrygian,
start from F - Lydian,
start from G - Mixolydian,
start from A - Aeolian,
start from B - Locrian

Ionian will be the major scale
Aeolian - will be the minor scale

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:54 pm

No, "start from" is insufficient. Or at least could mislead.

You have to have eg., D as 1 for D E F G A B C to be Dorian mode. You could do that, starting from D, in C major and perfectly adhere to C major. D is home, like a 'tonic' for that set to be Dorian mode.

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:10 pm

sslyutov wrote: ↑Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:24 pm easy to remember -
If you put modes in the following order:
Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian
You can use only white keys and change the first note of the scale to get corresponding mode.
for instance:
start from C - Ionian,
start from D - Dorian,
start from E - Phrygian,
start from F - Lydian,
start from G - Mixolydian,
start from A - Aeolian,
start from B - Locrian

This reminds me a joke a teacher I had used to tell. It was like this: "If you want to make chinese music, it's easy. Play anything using just the black keys of the piano. Of course, this is true for everyone EXCEPT for the chinese".

Your statement above is more or less the same thing. It is true for everyone EXCEPT for those who KNOW what are modes.

sslyutov wrote: ↑Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:24 pm Ionian will be the major scale
Aeolian - will be the minor scale

And what about Dorian with B flat? And what about Lydian with B flat? And what about G with F#?

HMMM: Confusing, isn't it? Especially if you consider that your Jonian didn't even exist as a mode outside of treaties, and your Aeolian was, in fact, a secondary mode of Dorian.

sslyutov · Post by **sslyutov** » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:18 pm

Which part of it is wrong?

sslyutov · Post by **sslyutov** » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:19 pm

jancivil wrote: ↑Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:54 pm No, "start from" is insufficient. Or at least could mislead.

You have to have eg., D as 1 for D E F G A B C to be Dorian mode. You could do that, starting from D, in C major and perfectly adhere to C major. D is home, like a 'tonic' for that set to be Dorian mode.

I said only white keys

This is an easy way to visualize the mechanics.
Another easy way to describe:
WWHWWWH
WHWWWHW
... etc.

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:48 pm

sslyutov wrote: ↑Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:18 pm Which part of it is wrong?

Basically, ALL of it.

C Major and A minor are also ALL white keys. How do you differentiate each mode from the others? Or are all of them the same thing? And how do you differentiate C Major from A minor?

I can perfectly play a "scale" from E to E and be firmly in C Major. The same can be said from G to G.

'modes' in popular music. Lydian examples? ughhh