What one bit of Music Theory was really helpful that caused your songwriting to improve ?

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
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:)
Last edited by woggle on Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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ChamMusic wrote:
el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
ChamMusic wrote:
jancivil wrote:You have to know things to forget them.
That's it in a nutshell!
Really?

Once these skills are assimilated they are not forgotten, even if they no longer exist as overt practices.
I suppose 'to forget them' does come across as a bit extreme! :0)

I won't speak for Jan, but what I mean by it is pretty much what you said really: "they no longer exist as overt practices"...you just 'forget' about them in the sense that they are subconsciously part of your approach to composing...
What I was alluding to was the context in which this often arises in threads such as this i.e that some with deep theoretical understanding will try to distance themselves from the notion of that training being fundamental to their work, so as to appear unconstrained by the given rules of engagement.

I don't think one can 'forget', to any significant effect, that kind of learning. Even if you get all Bruce "Don't think...Feel" Lee about it, you are still subconsciously operating from a much wider palette of colours/patterns/choices, and options are worth studying for.

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jancivil wrote:'forget them', figure of speech
Miles saying that to McLaughlin already says it. McLaughlin literally returning himself to the point before he learned to play, on command? alrighty then
Oh! You mean he didn't mean it literally? Say it ain't so :P

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el-bo wrote:Really?

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jancivil wrote:
el-bo wrote:Really?
You seem to be confused :shrug:

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el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
jancivil wrote:
el-bo wrote:Really?
You seem to be confused :shrug:
Let's recap then, sparky.
I basically wrote: Miles to JM: Play the guitar like you don't know how to play the guitar
Then
I, as though to explain that wrote: You have to know things to forget them.
Then
Mark wrote: That's it in a nutshell!
And
you wrote: Really?
and then let's thank Cap'n Obvious for this:
Once these skills are assimilated they are not forgotten, even if they no longer exist as overt practices.
Which takes the figurative bit in the exchange - in two iterations now - as though it's literally saying forget how to play the guitar. Which *point* by this time in the thread is pretty old news.
Last edited by jancivil on Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Accidentals. I work in reverse a lot, come up with a melody and break etc. then start thinking about what scale it's in. Realizing that not every time am I writing in some arcane key, the a chorus or whatever other part of a song could be in the more common scale, and that might add something.

Oh and don't sequence a song with the lead note at 1-1-0, especially if it's an eighth note and expect your drummer to be able to figure it out. Lost one that way! :hihi:

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Use inversions of chords...don't stick with the root, 3rd and 5th, try sticking the 3rd at the bottom for a different colour of the same chord. In terms of harmony, there's a great video on Youtube called Modal Interchange, by Music with Myles. It's along the same lines as using parallel minor chords but stretching it further!

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This is very hard to say but I will actually try and recollect the various leaps in my understanding in chronological order.


Chords, that was a big realisation one time.

Inversions, that gave me unlimited creativity from a certain perspective.

Intervals, I saw the patterns in the scales as guides to find my scale while playing by ear. That meant I could get closer to what I genuinely wanted while using theory as a backup rather than the primer.

The circle of 5ths. I can't explain it within the scope of this post, and maybe not even in person, but, sufficed to say, it is the expansion point. For someone who's not an instrumenalist, a keyboard has been something of an enigma for a very long time. The circle of 5ths gave me a chance to hear the common colours.

The 1st and 3rd notes are all that are needed for us to percieve the full chord. The 5th does add to the chord but it's not disasterous to leave it out and double the 1. Actually, I find it cleaner/sharper/purer this way. Also, this gives us the chance to have a 7th chord in 3 part harmony.

IV, V, I. I feel I've recently discoverd the true value and power of IV, V, I. All the chords I've sought but could never find - some variety of IV, V, I.

That's all for now.

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jancivil wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:10 pm
el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
jancivil wrote:
el-bo wrote:Really?
You seem to be confused :shrug:
Let's recap then, sparky.
I basically wrote: Miles to JM: Play the guitar like you don't know how to play the guitar
Then
I, as though to explain that wrote: You have to know things to forget them.
Then
Mark wrote: That's it in a nutshell!
And
you wrote: Really?
and then let's thank Cap'n Obvious for this:
Once these skills are assimilated they are not forgotten, even if they no longer exist as overt practices.
Which takes the figurative bit in the exchange - in two iterations now - as though it's literally saying forget how to play the guitar. Which *point* by this time in the thread is pretty old news.
Haha! It appears I am arguing at odds with myself :oops:

Will probably elaborate at some point, to try and get my thoughts out a little more clearly.

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The thing I wrestled with & hated the most.... Interval (ear) training!!!

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J. Smith wrote: Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:52 pm The best moment for me was when I realized that chord progressions can't be copyrighted.
:clap: you just gave me a light bulb moment...

But really though, I think learning triads and knowing the dominant chord gave my music production what I needed. The rest of music theory I've learnt seems to be overkill for the EDM I produce.
one day I was walking on the street and someone saw me, he said "hey man" and I don't remember why I'm telling you this.

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Most definitely the progression ii-V-i, as used in Jazz!

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A breakthrough for me was, don't afraid to be wrong about music theory on the internet. Inevitably, someone will come along and mock you and tear you down until you just want to scream or cry. And then you can step back and think, "huh, I guess I have more to learn."

It's like school, but free.

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branshen wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:41 am Most definitely the progression ii-V-i, as used in Jazz!
Yes, that is the standard “front door” in Jazz where we still have a V-I, however, wouldn’t you benefit from thr backdoor progression iv7-bVII7-I too, which may give it a little more “jazzy” flavour?

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