What one bit of Music Theory was really helpful that caused your songwriting to improve ?

[IncarnateX]

You mean the railway worker Phineas Gage who had his frontal lope destroyed by an iron rod that went right through his skull? The accident was initiated by an explosion, which he came in the way of. Story goes that he lived for 12 years after but that his friends did not recognize him in his behavior anymore. Completely change of personality.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

[woggle]

[IncarnateX]

Henry Molaison is actually yet a case confirming that semantic memory and procedural memory are not one entity but two interacting subsystems. He suffered from anterograde amnesia too. Yet the neuroscientists were able to teach him a few motor skills though they could not teach him "facts", they slipped from his semantic memory shortly after. So, in some case you can make another route into their memory by virtue of procedural techniques if the semantic system is too impaired.

[IncarnateX]

I tend to think such cases are less useful now but that doesn't mean they haven't been useful getting us to here.

Yes, but today we have a good deal of cases where the suggestions of the Gage story are confirmed, e.g. that frontal lopes are crucial for attention and control and especially orbitofrontal cortex is involved with issues of morale, manner and thus traits of personality. Typical symptoms are summarized in the wiki to an ok extent as far as my knowledge goes:

Destruction of the OFC through acquired brain injury typically leads to a pattern of disinhibited behaviour. Examples include swearing excessively, hypersexuality, poor social interaction, compulsive gambling, drug use (including alcohol and tobacco), and poor empathising ability. Disinhibited behaviour by patients with some forms of frontotemporal dementia is thought to be caused by degeneration of the OFC.[55]

So the story of Gage did lead the way for the main hypothesis, which has been confirmed with similar cases ever since.

[ChamMusic]

Research into brain damage is multifaceted, contradictory and confusing...each new study often 'proves' something different...very little in this area is concrete at all. Not that I really understood the point of your example: having briefly looked the case up, it's clearly open to huge debate amongst many experts who all interpet it very differently at times.

I can believe that this is confusing to you but as far Clive goes, I know of no doubt that he could play without knowing that he could and not remembering afterwards. His anterograde amnesia is well documented and there was a documentary once that showed how he would be surprised that he could play an organ in a church. So I would plz ask you to show where you looked him up that made you in doubt that he had retrograde and anterograde amnesia but could play. Wiki says so, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clive_Wearing. Textbooks say so, I learned so and watched the documentary, so now I am excited as to what new you can bring that makes it all very confusing and invalid for that reason. And he is not the only case but one of the most famous because his anterograde amnesia was so servere. Lots of neuroscientic evidence and cognitive psychological experiments confirm this division of memory. Every science is multifacetted but that does not mean it is not valid in many specific cases, if not most of them. You know, when people start to reject neuroscience on basis of feelings in their toes, I am off and so are the neuroscientists, so I hope you can come up with some more specific info.

And my point, well you make it, I just show you how memory works, then you can decide which type is importent to you or not. But at the end of the day, I’d say there are limits to what we really can forget without the ability to recollect and if we want to change our behavior we would need semantic as well as procedural memory. Make of it what you like.

I think ChamMusic has given us one of those "the science isn't settled" moments so beloved of Climate Change denialists To be fair to you and ChamMusic - it is incredibly difficult to communicate decades of work in a field like Neuroscience or Psych in a forum - so much background knowledge sits "in the background"

Dude, that's just silly and insulting...don't ever associate me with the words 'Climate Change Denial'..period! They're a total bunch of fuckwits!

You assume I have no experience in the neuroscience field or have never discussed it in depth before...you assume incorrectly. As a special needs teacher for many years, it was a regular low level part of my life + as an ardent amateur musicologist I own many, many books on the subject of music and the brain.

I do NOT dismiss neuroscience in any way whatsoever..never have done, but it's definitely a science that is constantly in flux as we discover more and more about the nervous system and brain.

In terms of Clive - the uncertainty from my brief glance at a number of academic papers that referenced the case was very much based around the 'how' and 'why' he was able to do what he could...I wasn't denying that he could do it...read more carefully and don't jump to conclusions!

[ChamMusic]

Research into brain damage is multifaceted, contradictory and confusing...each new study often 'proves' something different...very little in this area is concrete at all. Not that I really understood the point of your example: having briefly looked the case up, it's clearly open to huge debate amongst many experts who all interpet it very differently at times.

I can believe that this is confusing to you but as far Clive goes, I know of no doubt that he could play without knowing that he could and not remembering afterwards. His anterograde amnesia is well documented and there was a documentary once that showed how he would be surprised that he could play an organ in a church. So I would plz ask you to show where you looked him up that made you in doubt that he had retrograde and anterograde amnesia but could play. Wiki says so, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clive_Wearing. Textbooks say so, I learned so and watched the documentary, so now I am excited as to what new you can bring that makes it all very confusing and invalid for that reason. And he is not the only case but one of the most famous because his anterograde amnesia was so servere. Lots of neuroscientic evidence and cognitive psychological experiments confirm this division of memory. Every science is multifacetted but that does not mean it is not valid in many specific cases, if not most of them. You know, when people start to reject neuroscience on basis of feelings in their toes, I am off and so are the neuroscientists, so I hope you can come up with some more specific info.

And my point, well you make it, I just show you how memory works, then you can decide which type is importent to you or not. But at the end of the day, I’d say there are limits to what we really can forget without the ability to recollect and if we want to change our behavior we would need semantic as well as procedural memory. Make of it what you like.

And good heavens in general! We are certainly living in times where well documentet scientific evidence can be rejected with a fart on the internet. Yes, I know, even for a case a well documented as Clive’s, cognitive test, brain scans, observations of behavior and statistics = fake news because my ass does not agree (and I do not need to ask it why, I know it is right per default).

I understand your point about the negative influence of the internet...I struggle against it everyday with my students! Yet...you quote WIKI at me as a reliable source..seriously! Wikipedia is a minefield at times.

Note: It wasn't confusing for me...I was suggesting that the 'how and 'why' of Clive's musical abilities was clearly confusing for the experts..they were at odds about these elements of the scenario.

[IncarnateX]

No neuroscentist I have known of have ever been confused about such clear a case as Clive. Plz let it go for your own sake. Your wiki denial is not going to do it either. The wiki is free for any neuroscientst to correct and if you had any knowledge at all about neuroscience, Clive would be the last case you’d doubt. You are in over your head. If you want to rub it further in the shit, be my guest, but I think the chance that this performance will convince anyone with a score of average or above in a Wais test is very very small. Your reaction was obviosly made in panic because you thought my post was directed at you somehow, well it was not, and fyi: if I ever want to address something you said in particular, I will quote you, so you do need read to shit in between my lines if I did not call you up.

As far as neuroscience goes, the divisions of memory I presented are backed up by loads of evidence, e.g. double dissociations, look up this word, mate. So you are not just up against Clive but the whole friggin discipline.

[donkey tugger]

I preferred him when he was with Derek.

[Jbravo]

if you want to have a hit in 2018, you better stick to chords I, IV, V and vi

[ChamMusic]

I preferred him when he was with Derek.

"Whales are f**king stupid. Can you mention one whale in the history of mankind that's had a record in the top ten? Can you? Can you mention one whale that's written the equivalent of, er, Othello, Shakespeare, Health and efficiency?" :0)

[donkey tugger]

I preferred him when he was with Derek.

"Whales are f**king stupid. Can you mention one whale in the history of mankind that's had a record in the top ten? Can you? Can you mention one whale that's written the equivalent of, er, Othello, Shakespeare, Health and efficiency?" :0)

The whales were all Nazis..

[ChamMusic]

I preferred him when he was with Derek.

"Whales are f**king stupid. Can you mention one whale in the history of mankind that's had a record in the top ten? Can you? Can you mention one whale that's written the equivalent of, er, Othello, Shakespeare, Health and efficiency?" :0)

The whales were all Nazis..

Please don't go there! :0)

[ChamMusic]

No neuroscentist I have known of have ever been confused about such clear a case as Clive. Plz let it go for your own sake. Your wiki denial is not going to do it either. The wiki is free for any neuroscientst to correct and if you had any knowledge at all about neuroscience, Clive would be the last case you’d doubt. You are in over your head. If you want to rub it further in the shit, be my guest, but I think the chance that this performance will convince anyone with a score of average or above in a Wais test is very very small. Your reaction was obviosly made in panic because you thought my post was directed at you somehow, well it was not, and fyi: if I ever want to address something you said in particular, I will quote you, so you do need read to shit in between my lines if I did not call you up.

As far as neuroscience goes, the divisions of memory I presented are backed up by loads of evidence, e.g. double dissociations, look up this word, mate. So you are not just up against Clive but the whole friggin discipline.

You're seriously frothing my friend, ( I can call you that as you said that I'm your mate)! :0)

Sometimes people just decide to press buttons ...I'm very good at it when the mood takes me...consider your buttons pressed! :0)

Plz let it go for your own sake - your concern is duly noted...and genuinely appreciated, but I'm in no danger here.

The wiki is free for any neuroscientist to correct - ditto music / music tech...I regularly edited entries for years...it's still full of inaccuracies in that area though!

if you had any knowledge at all about neuroscience, Clive would be the last case you’d doubt. - I do have a low level, (by your expertise), understanding of it and I DO NOT DOUBT THE CLIVE CASE AT ALL and have never said that I did...

I've simply said that I found a number of mildly interesting pieces of academic writings that referenced the case and very clearly debated certain details of the situation...none of them dismissed it or tried to discredit it, they merely discussed it and debated it...frankly on a level that's more for you than me, but I got the bare bones of it.

You jumped to conclusions...easy to do when discussing things via the written word rather than face to face...done it myself a few times.



You are in over your head. - I'm NOT trying to challenge your knowledge...you seem to feel attacked and threatened. Of course you clearly know a lot more than me, but that doesn't mean I can't try and join
the conversation.

Neuroscience has experienced an unprecedented period of growth and advancement during the last 25 years...many disciplines within the field have flourished and expanded greatly...entire new sub-disciplines, areas of research, and methodologies have sprung up during that time. But that has also inevitably meant significant changes in certain long and strongly held scientific viewpoints in the field. It is arrogant to say that may not happen again, to at least some extent, in the next 25 years as it all develops even further.

Your reaction was obviosly(sic) made in panic - nope, I actually typed at leisure whilst composing...seriously NOT a panicky kinda guy...really doesn't help when your teaching teenagers with moderate to severe behavioural issues! :0)

You are in over your head. - again, never doubting that you're the expert, just trying to have a conversation.

if I ever want to address something you said in particular, I will quote you
The one entry I did respond directly to was the one where you DID quote me!

you do need read the shit in between my lines - that's the point, I was smelling, sorry, reading it.

From time to time, my highly intelligent eldest son does what you have done here...

Pushes a debate in a certain specific, highly specialized direction backed up by an undeniable wealth of knowledge and experience in that area...but he just misses the actual point in the first place.

[IncarnateX]

Friend. It is time for you and me to step back. Our fiftheen minutes of fame in this thread are long overdue and it is about time to get the thread on track or off track elsewhere. I will let this closing argument of defense stand as if. I have said my part and provided my evidence. Let the high jury of the KVR intellegentsia do their duty and the best idiot win...or lose or whatever they decide, it probably won't make sense anyway.

Let us talk music theory now. Well...I won’t for moment because I just got my Beatstep pro and can now finalise my new set up.

Cheers mate

[ChamMusic]

Friend. It is time for you and me to step back. Our fiftheen minutes of fame in this thread are long overdue and it is about time to get the thread on track or off track elsewhere. I will let this closing argument of defense stand as if. I have said my part and provided my evidence. Let the high jury of the KVR intellegentsia do their duty and the best idiot win...or lose or whatever they decide, it probably won't make sense anyway.

Let us talk music theory now. Well...I won’t for moment because I just got my Beatstep pro and can now finalise my new set up.

Cheers mate

Agreed! :0)

Let the high jury of the KVR intellegentsia do their duty and the best idiot win...or lose or whatever they decide, it probably won't make sense anyway. - let's not necessarily go binary on this though..enough of that from Trump and Co, Farage and Brexit et al!