What one bit of Music Theory was really helpful that caused your songwriting to improve ?

[jancivil]

I'm not knocking chance, or certainly accident. I would say that an accident in a really creative situation might be of a certain quality other than out of the blue.

[telecode]

I get this, and in the long run, I have no doubt that you will learn from this. Personally, I need to feel inspired, I need to feel in my own mind what rhythm should go with what I'm doing. I struggle within myself, wondering if this is really me, have I really done this, has this come together out of intention or luck - not that I am death against luck in music, a lot of what I consider my best stuff has had it's fair share of luck, but luck in creativity comes with a dollop of guilt for me. I know deep down, that the real greats of music know what they are doing, rhythmically, and musically, and I see no reason that electronic music should be any different in terms of intent. I feel that all the assistance that is accepted when it comes to electronic music could be avoided simply by two people working together like every other form of music. The trouble is, it's only one man/woman that takes the bow at the end of an electronic piece.

My own view on "creativity" is that you are bound to be a distillation of the stuff that you like to listen to and your musical influences - whatever they may be. How you use loops and whether you can use loops in your final released music I think depends on the music you make and how you use them. I am a big fan of new electronic music and I see lots of very creative people doing remixes and what not.

Its a bit like the old argument a long time ago and the attack on hip-hop music and their use of samples. Is using samples a indicator of musical ineptitude or is the use of samples creativity. I personally think its creativity when used well. Take the old Notorious BIG song as an example. Do we care they used the MTume juicy sample as the hook throughout the song? Absolutely not at all because the spirit, the heart and emotion of the song is in the lyrics and the vocal performance. And I also think there is a direct creative connection between the lyrical content and the MTume recording itself which makes the final result what it is -- is a ground breaking work of hip-hop by one of the greats of the genre at the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JZom_gVfuw

[IncarnateX]

I'm not knocking chance, or certainly accident. I would say that an accident in a really creative situation might be of a certain quality other than out of the blue.

Yup but organising finished loops only does not amounts to really creative situations, and hardly creativity at all, methinks.

[Stamped Records]

I make a fair and reasonable distinction between sampling, and loops, I think.

[Stamped Records]

I don't think it amounts to that. You have to make decisions and your chance of coherence and sense isn't improved at all through merely having material provided for you.

Ok, I think I see what you are saying. A person who doesn't need loops, could in fact use them better, than someone who does need them. I have used loops for fun, I've been a little disappointed by how easy it was to achieve something that was better than my most attentitive attempts, but, I feel like I could use them better because of a deeper understanding, an instrinsic knowledge of what works and what doesn't work, without too much second guessing.

[telecode]

You show us you can't so much as have the idea of your own so you have to appropriate it from outside. This is the very proof of what I have said. You are using a crutch before you got up on your own feet to walk. When do you learn to use your own legs with a crutch from the cradle, as though you are lame. Cradle-to-grave, son.

Yeah, That is true to the bone. And the reason for that is , as I said, I use a lot of world music as the basis for the rhythms. And giver that I am not of Egyptian, African or Turkish origin -- I am freely admit, I don't know as much about the music or it's feel as someone who has that music running through their blood. Hence, I use a crutch and listen to CD recordings and loop samples to try to get an idea of what they are doing. There is nothing wrong with it in my books.

At what point do you learn enough from replicating the idea to where you have the initiative to make it happen without the CD and the loops?

You never learn enough. But yes, you can re-use the stuff you picked up from one thing you did. But then you fall into the hole of consciously trying to not repeat yourself, so you go on the hunt to find something new to use.

Until you do you'll never be talking about the same things a musician who is a self-starter is. So you find bullshit is some kind of weapon. You see a statement about the use of loops that resembles you and it's time to react and act out.
No, it isn't hurting anybody but yourself, you lie to yourself first.

okay. now i lost the flow..

sorry to break it to you, but i hear very little "originality" in any music but any artist. it's all little bits of stuff I have heard before.

[Stamped Records]

Anyway, a little back on topic.

I've recently learned about a distinction to be made between a key and a scale, namely, a key is more or less definite at a given point in time, and a scale is something that can be infered from musical content at a given point in time. I think that's along the lines of what I was getting at with the original post. In a way, a chord can be a scale, so when a chord is in use, we can choose to limit ourselves to the scale of the chord, and a lot of music can be done this way. The term arpeggio was wrong, and to use a sweeping generalisation was wrong, but I think I've stumbled upon the musical terminology for what I actually mean, now.

The funny thing about music, I've found, is that by the time I know how to ask the question, it's because I have the answer that I'm able to ask it in the first place - catch 22. There's not only one answer of course, and there's always an exception to the rule, but more often than not, my own question is the answer.

EDIT, I'm in the wrong topic for posts about music being an arpeggio, but the topic participants are pretty much the same anyway............

[telecode]

Anyway, a little back on topic.

I've recently learned about a distinction to be made between a key and a scale, namely, a key is more or less definite at a given point in time, and a scale is something that can be infered from musical content at a given point in time. I think that's along the lines of what I was getting at with the original post. In a way, a chord can be a scale, so when a chord is in use, we can choose to limit ourselves to the scale of the chord, and a lot of music can be done this way. The term arpeggio was wrong, and to use a sweeping generalisation was wrong, but I think I've stumbled upon the musical terminology for what I actually mean, now.

The funny thing about music, I've found, is that by the time I know how to ask the question, it's because I have the answer that I'm able to ask it in the first place - catch 22. There's not only one answer of course, and there's always an exception to the rule, but more often than not, my own question is the answer.

EDIT, I'm in the wrong topic for posts about music being an arpeggio, but the topic participants are pretty much the same anyway............

well, you can always look up the definition anywhere.

http://www2.siba.fi/muste1/index.php?id=62&la=en

but for myself, as a guy that plays music with other people and my understanding of it when i am required to play among a group of people in my own musical ability. (not highly technical jazz people .. but your regular run of the mill rock music -- 3 or 4 chord people)

the key is the root key of the song and is everyones territory. so if its the key of E major, most probably the verses will start in that chord. i always know where the root chord and notes are mostly going to be.

the scale is my own territory. meaning i can play notes in major or minor depending what other people are playing.

this becomes important when you are playing in a very loud setting and you can't hear what you are playing because of bad sound and thundering drums and bass amps next to you ears.

[Stamped Records]

the scale is my own territory. meaning i can play notes in major or minor depending what other people are playing.

Can you explain a little bit of how it is that you can play notes in major or minor, depending on what other people are playing?

Is it, that, for example, in jazz we agree that we are going to play a III triad here, and you can therefore play the lower major section of the chord or emphasise the higher minor aspect of the chord?

[telecode]

the scale is my own territory. meaning i can play notes in major or minor depending what other people are playing.

Can you explain a little bit of how it is that you can play notes in major or minor, depending on what other people are playing?

Is it, that, for example, in jazz we agree that we are going to play a III triad here, and you can therefore play the lower major section of the chord or emphasise the higher minor aspect of the chord?

i can try. though i am not really a teacher or a music theorist. and no, i dont play jazz or classical -- i am just a listener of those genres.

so if everyone is playing a part in the song that goes from Bmin to Amaj to Gmaj, and you have to come up with a solo or a lick or a hook for that part of the song, and i have never heard what they are doing, i would be focusing on constructing my parts out of the notes that make up those chords.

and if its a group people in a room that has agreed before hand that they want to play rock & roll and want a rock & roll feel and vide to the music, and do not want to explore experimental music.. i would not be trying to incorporate notes that might be found in fancy dorian or mixolodian scales unless i wish to be kicked out of the band for not fitting in with the vibe of the music.

[telecode]

Anyway, a little back on topic.
EDIT, I'm in the wrong topic for posts about music being an arpeggio, but the topic participants are pretty much the same anyway............

Yup. I think you are in the wrong section of the forums as well. Jancivils stuff is very well made but its really a completely different genre intended for a completely different audience than electronic music. So it's a bit like getting advice on how to play soccer and enter the big leagues from a person that mostly plays field hockey for a very niche specatorship.

You are probably going to get better advice of how they come up with original ideas from artists that actually make electronic music for their listenership. A lot of them are interact with their fan base on FB and dischord as a promotional tool to promote their Eps and what not.

Electronic music has a lot more to it than theory. The really good artists (that I personally like) spend a lot, A LOT, of time learning their tools such as DAWs and synths and doing stuff with them that you haven't heard before or you never knew could be done with those tools. And more importantly they break "rules" of music theory and beat making all the time. (At least the really cool ones I personally like to listen to).

[Stamped Records]

In my experience, electronic musicians are of the opinion, mostly, that playing with their toys can account and make up for a lack of any real knowledge of music. Even a simple 3 chord progression with 7ths and 9ths is beyond those that don't put their hands on an instrument - unless they intend to trick their way out of that one and download some midi.

The disclaimer here is that I don't refer to all electronic music, but even in electronic music, I'm still of the opinion, that the notes and rhythm are king, and a single conscious musical decisicion is king over a thousand random results.

I literally despise the tricky, sneaky, easy way that avoids intent and elevates the result to the 100th floor of success, meanwhile, completely ignoring the fact that they've skipped the other 99 floors. Again, disclaimer, this is not ALL electronic music, but there is a lot of it.

[vurt]

electronic music...
i see.

[telecode]

In my experience, electronic musicians are of the opinion, mostly, that playing with their toys can account and make up for a lack of any real knowledge of music. Even a simple 3 chord progression with 7ths and 9ths is beyond those that don't put their hands on an instrument - unless they intend to trick their way out of that one and download some midi.

The disclaimer here is that I don't refer to all electronic music, but even in electronic music, I'm still of the opinion, that the notes and rhythm are king, and a single conscious musical decisicion is king over a thousand random results.

sure. i guess there are different types of electronic music and artists.

might as well make this disaster of a thread productive. throwing in a shameless plug for my fav elec label. getting released friday.

https://presave.io/t/tellmewhy

https://soundcloud.com/arizsi/want-u-back-1

[Stamped Records]

Ah, I'm not going to elaborate further, enough is enough. There's a nice-ish vibe in that track but the sound I find very cheesy and hyper-commercial.