Anyone out there studying Schoenberg's Theory of Harmony ?

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
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rorshack23 wrote: 3) Can you suggest any listening by composers who were strongly and directly influenced by these books? i.e. do you know of anyone who writes (particularly piano) music that travels through regions and uses transformations, etc?
Not a direct answer to your question, but it's worth noting that John Cage studied intensely with Schoenberg for two years in the 1930s. Cage said he was a major influence, while Schoenberg considered Cage an "inventor" rather than a "composer". On reflection, they both valued intellectual compositional process over "listenability".

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StudioDave wrote:
herodotus wrote:The reason for studying Schoenberg is to understand Schoenberg. Expecting simple instruction in harmony from him would be like asking Gaudi how to build a retaining wall.
All respect to Herodotus, but that comment's a little strained. Schoenberg's books are intensely "classical", i.e. they have little or nothing to do with his 12-tone or atonal methods. In his Fundamentals most examples come from Beethoven and Brahms, and IIRC he maintains that approach through all his didactic works.

In a deeper sense, yes, I agree with the comment. You'll certainly know where Schoenberg came from if you study his teaching curricula (e.g. Beethoven, Mahler, Brahms). For as much as he's been described as radical or even insane, his background is solidly placed in the European classical tradition. And indeed, his approach is severe and demanding. He expected a lot from students, and his methods were certainly effective, judging by the list of his outstanding students (it's a long list).
I was simple trying to show respect for the master.

After a certain time, you don't read Aristotle to learn philosophy (though you can certainly learn about philosophy reading him), you read Aristotle to understand Aristotle, because he was just that awesome.

To me, Arnold is on that level, or at least he's almost on that level.
And hey, I'd have asked Gaudi to build that wall. What, miss the opportunity to have a retaining wall built by Gaudi ?! Can you imagine what you'd get ? :)
Yes it would certainly be a cool looking retaining wall (assuming it was ever finished). :hihi:

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You may enjoy this miniseries on YouTube.
I did. I have that book since 1976 but never had the time to honor it.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=olwVvbWd-tg
MuLab-Reaper of course :D

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herodotus wrote:...After a certain time, you don't read Aristotle to learn philosophy (though you can certainly learn about philosophy reading him), you read Aristotle to understand Aristotle, because he was just that awesome.

To me, Arnold is on that level, or at least he's almost on that level.
Truth. A titanic personality, in every way, and one of my permanent idols.

Best,

dp

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StudioDave wrote:
rorshack23 wrote:StudioDave, do you by any chance have the ability to share your MIDI files for 20th Century Harmony?
http://linux-sound.org/midfiles/persiket.tar.gz (http://linux-sound.org/midfiles/persiket.tar.gz)

The MIDI files were created with Voyetra's Sequencer Plus. They're transcribed exactly as regards pitches, rhythms, and tempi, but they are not orchestrated, i.e. they only require a piano preset. I left the instrumentation as a further exercise. A README file is included.
Also, which Sessions book are you referring to?
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/8041 ... c-practice (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/8041217-harmonic-practice)
Thirdly, after all of this study, have you written any music which reflects your knowledge of these disciplines, and is any of it available for us to listen to?
Pretty much everything on my SoundCloud account reflects my engagement with books mentioned in this thread, but the influence perhaps isn't so obvious. I write tonal and not-so-tonal music, from solo blues to serialist electroacoustic works. Some is meant for performers, some isn't. Current personal favorites are the tracks Cabbagenic, Vosim - Dream Sequence II, the Sonata and other recent pieces for sequenced piano.

https://soundcloud.com/davephillips69/
One more: what do you believe these studies added to your ability to write music (big question, I know, but I'm wondering where all this leads).
I should emphasize that the books were part of a curriculum that included a lot of ear training, analysis, and just listening to and enjoying many pieces of great music, not only from the 20th century and not only from the "classical" tradition.

I was deeply impressed by a statement by Roger Sessions regarding what people call "music theory". In his opinion it's really musical craft that we all want and need. The books and exercises intend to enhance your sensitivity to the materials of music, they're not abstractions, and if you take them seriously you'll do a lot of hard work to build solid musical skills. Music composition requires at least as much practice as any other aspect of the musical arts. Early work tends to be imitative, academic, unoriginal, et cetera, but it's necessary and it will help you reach your goal.

That's what the learning has done and continues to do for my musicianship, it continually enhances my sensitivity to the musical materials at hand, at the largest and smallest levels. When composing I tend towards my intuition, but that intuition itself has absorbed the input of countless hours playing, studying, and listening to music.

One thing more: The books present exercises and examples taken from actual practice, but they rarely indicate the way from relatively brief studies to large-scale extended forms. In my experience the best "books" on that topic are the scores to large-scale works. You don't have to work your way through the catalogs of Haydn or Telemann, just pick two or three pieces you like by your favorite composers, get the scores, then spend the next few months examining their designs and details. It's great fun, you'll learn a lot, and you will definitely emerge from the study with an enriched awareness of just how things work together in a complex piece of music. Which can be of considerable value to someone who wants to write such things.

Best,

dp

Wow - dp - thank you.
I've downloaded the Persichetti files, very helpful.
Also, thank you so much for your reply and advice.
Plus the links to your music, which sounds amazing, and I will check out more of it - thank you so much.

Rory Quirk

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StudioDave wrote:I sequenced the whole of Persichetti's book (still have the MIDI files),
Just downloaded this, thank you so much - amazing work ! :clap: :)

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I have respect for the man but I must say it has more to do with him being such a feisty and rebellious curmudgeon to everything around him. I found studying to be more of a forced strain that I was having to struggle through. So I decided to just spend all of my time composing. That is a struggle in which I at least have some fun. At times anyways. Sorry I am commenting solely for the sake of being unrestricted. I have claustrophobia. Ignore me. Carry on Arnoldites. Carry on.
So it goes...

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I just started studying this book. I'm on chapter 4/19 and I find him to be a fantastic coach on the subject so far. The book is well structured but the chapters need to be studied in order and every sentence needs attention. I've found working through the book's exercises are quite fun maybe because I am unfamiliar with the material being covered.

Some people seem to mis-characterize Schoenberg, call him a madman and see his writing as the ramblings of just that. But his writing is very methodical, and the meaning always becomes very clear with careful reading. He writes a lot like Bernstein lectures (or maybe it's the other way around).

Has anyone here ever went through all 19 chapters?

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I never really looked at that book, but I stared at Structural Functions of Harmony quite a bit. By the time I think I had the wherewithal to fully apprehend such a thing as Theory of Harmony I was moving away from harmony. The late romantic harmonic world was a big thing for me until it wasn't. I had such a great course where most of it wound up being part-writing drills in quite convoluted harmony. I may have kind of burned out.

Still fascinating historically and to get a grounding for the later work, where certain decisions happen and kind of why.

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