diminished seventh flat ninth chord?

[jancivil]

Yeah, chewing gum for the mind.
I somewhat disagree with what I did upthread, I think fmr's idea that it doesn't have to be a chord may amount to a simpler or clearer statement.

With JS Bach brought in we're reminded of linear writing as opposed to the ideation in jazz where you really like chord names but it could happen that someone decides to play 'C' over the Bº in order to push the momentum (really what drives modern jazz harmony). At the time I was probably irritated by fmr's anti-jazz thing and the OP was coming from chords.

I come up with things that are quite unnameable out of the linear school of thought, where I don't even try or care. Like I go in between any of 12 tones, 'microtonal' (a word I really dislike) and other lines will coincide and we may have a pretty dense sonority, impossible to force one o' these names on it.

[tapper mike]

[quote="terriandralph"]
However, to follow up on the example I gave earlier, I am having trouble finding a chord built with the following pitches: B, D, F, Ab, C

Stacking order leads to m7b5b9 usually m7b5 Lets say Am7b5 A-C-Eb-G is a common sub for Cm or specifically Cm6 C-Eb-G-A Adding a Db for a flat9 would be superficial Cm6b9

[seacouch]

I only worry about labels if I'm writing charts (to be read). And most of the musicians I associate with have at least some jazz background/training. If a label can be applied (and sometimes it can't) that helps the players orient themselves, then I invariably get much better results from them.

[jancivil]

Yeah, there's not a lot of reason to label something too exotic; I'd just score it if this is the required voicing.
I wrote simpler chord names for the rhythm section eg., G7b9 or just Bº7 here.

[jancivil]

However, to follow up on the example I gave earlier, I am having trouble finding a chord built with the following pitches: B, D, F, Ab, C

Stacking order leads to m7b5b9 usually m7b5

On what root? D F Ab C B now? m7b5 13? Why not, ok. But the original question regards a fully diminished harmony. It is no m7b5, the 7 is diminished.

Lets say Am7b5 A-C-Eb-G is a common sub for Cm or specifically Cm6 C-Eb-G-A Adding a Db for a flat9 would be superficial Cm6b9

C minor is C Eb G, add A and Db? Neither G nor A was given. One can only benefit by paying full attention.

[Stringleaf]

I came across this chord when creating a tri-tone substitution where the b9 was the melody note. What I believe I ended up with really was a 7(b9)(#5) with the 5th in the bass (and no root note). I.e. in your case: B D F Ab C, this would be an E7(b9)(#5)/B. Especially if you feel that this chord wants to resolve to Ami.

[NKF]

These sorts or arrangements can be interpreted many ways.

It is pointless giving a label without a context.

Let’s take the enharmonic values c eb gb Bb

You have 4 diminuant 9 chords without routes.

A good excercise is moving every some one at a time and notice how a slight movement which can be considered a suspension can translate to another chord function.

If you move any single tone up a half step , you now get a half diminished chord.

So 4 dominants 9
4 ii7 of V in minor.
They can also resolve to 4 major tonics by essentially treating the 3 and 5 as blues note type tensions.

Move the eb to d and the Bbb to Ab, and you have the French 43 sonority essentially acting as either as an agnment6 dominant anticipation or Tritone substitution which can resolve to the tonic.

You are essentially altering the 4 dominants you could go to mentioned earlier as it is enharmonically the same as a dominant with b5.

You can easily go to 2nd inversion or F# minor by moving c up hs thé eb in unison on the same C# while Gb and Bbb remain.


This is the limitation people face when thinking of chords as static events . You need to understand how voices move. Approaching music ala Rick Beato is extremely rudimentary and limited,

[hmaringer]

Could be numerous things.. I would call it a Bdim7(b9) according to my berklee training LOL

C being the root would indeed change the tonality but then you have a 13 on a MinMaj7 and are assuming there is a b3 in the chord which you did not list so it will not work.

[Forgotten]

If C is the tonic, then you can't call it a B.

[jancivil]

I know that the diminished seventh chord can be thought of as an incomplete ninth with the root omitted.

[there is] a second meaning, which is mostly forgotten since...

In its other meaning, this chord was understood - if we stay in c-minor - as a substitue for the half-diminished chord of the II-degree. So, instead of D-F-Ab-C they mostly took B instead of C, so in this case B could be seen as a "suspended note to C; while D is the fundamental tone of the chord.

Sounds strange?

Bach's music:
so, if he writes a chord progression: D-f-ab-h which goes to G7, it's in fact a falling fifth in the fundamentals
... not the senseless progression V-V.

Now, with this answer, you have an explanation why the chord b-d-f-ab-c is found seldom: it would combine the "meant" note c with its substitute.

That’s a bit tortured, whilst imaginative. I don’t buy it at all.

D F Ab B is B diminished. B definitely is not resolving to this 7th, C, def. considered a dissonance.

Functionally we have dominant occurring twice if one writes that. B to C is not a suspension/resolve, we in_fact have ii7 moving to ^vii7; and note well, suspensions resolve downward by definition.

The only suspension named as though it goes up is ‘2 - 3’, but its resolution is down as well. IE: your harmony is say V of C, C is suspended in the lower voice, target is B obv., but the dissonance used for the figure is C vs D, a 2nd resolving to a third. A resolve upwards is called retardation. (Really.)
But more to the point, D to B is not considered a dissonance.
Yes, it looks strange, it is strange.

[jancivil]

I know that the diminished seventh chord can be thought of as an incomplete ninth with the root omitted. For example, the V chord in Cm (G7b9) with the root omitted, would be B, D, F, and Ab, and the appearance of the Ab in the chord being the result of adding yet another third to the V7 chord, with the Ab coming from the Cm scale.

Here’s the thing. You can think of it like that, and it might function the same (dominant), in which case the objection ‘you can’t give it the name G7b9’ is kind of pedantic.

That said, it may function otherwise (eg., via enharmonic change, G# B D F may be dominant to A; D F Ab Cb may be dominant to Eb; F Ab Cb Ebb may be dominant of Gb.).



But the meaning of ii in minor is not obscure; a full diminished 7th from ii is identical to ^vii7. It could be the modulation pivot, vii of Eb, of Gb, or of A but as ii, functionally, this is reaching. It is not some mystery add6 glommed onto ii, or an incomplete half-diminished, or any other identity than <diminished 7th harmony>. If you have moved from D F Ab B to D F Ab C you have a full-on chord change, vii6/5 to ii7.