Questions from a beginner studying theory (with music examples!)

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
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I've been studying theory a lot lately, and I've compiled a list of questions on topics that I'm having a difficult time wrapping my mind around. Any help you could provide would be awesome.

1. Modulations with/without a tonal center

From my understanding, modulating with a shared tonal center would be something like moving from C Ionian to C aeolian. This keeps the 1st note of the scale as C. The tonic has the root note of C and if I move to C aeolian I introduce 3 flats but the piece still centers around C. In this way I can borrow chords from any mode to add color and change the feeling of the music, but I can always come home to C. Doing so would be an example of modal interchange. Is this correct? This seems to be very common in the music I listen to. I believe an example of this would be "Black Hole Sun" by Soundgarden. 12tone describes this below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... OTRoZMAJ0s

Modulating without a shared tonal center would be something like Coltrane's "Giant Steps" then? The chord progressions are moving between 3 different keys, and doing frequently enough that the piece never stays in one key for very long at all. Does this piece have a shared tonal center? 12tone explains this one as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SalBNnzUVME

If this piece does have a shared tonal center, do you have examples of music that does not?

2. Functional harmony & neo-riemannian theory

This tonal center intrigued me so I went on a dive into functional harmony. I realize I can use modal interchange to briefly change keys while maintaining a tonal center, and that I can modulate to a different key with a different tonal center all together. In looking for a quick and easy way to do this I stumbled upon neo-riemannian theory. If you don't know what that is and would like to here is a link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Riemannian_theory

I like the idea of using the tonnetz to move around without worrying about a tonal center, but it looks like it has some limitations after you move beyond 7th chords. Does neo-riemannian theory work for augmented, diminished, sus2, sus4, or polychords? Since the theory is based on thirds, I know it won't work for any quartal or quintal chords.

3. chord scale relationships & harmony

While we're here, I believe that almost all chords are part of some scale, is that correct? Even poly chords are from 2 different scales, layered on top of each other. If this is correct, how does functional harmony account for something like suspended chords? Also, if all chords are derived from scales, why is Rick Beato unable to name the famous Pink Floyd chord from "Shine On You Crazy Diamond" here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... dTaKl9FOF0

Also, it would seem that some musicians choose to play only the wrong notes, like in some of the solos I've found in Meshuggah's music. Here's an example from Fredrik of Meshuggah below. What is he even playing here? It doesn't seem to be part of any scale that I know, and it seems to neglect the rest of what is happening musically. What is this called? Is this atonal playing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX9KlOL8uVY

4. Bass

I've always had a hard time coming up with bass lines. I end up playing only root notes to whatever chord my guitar is playing. I can mess around with some chord tones, can play some scale notes or chromatic notes when moving around, but what else is there? I feel completely stuck when it comes to bass. Mark Speer of Khruangbin describes that in their writing, bass and drums usually come first. He says he avoids playing the roots of chords because he doesn't want to get in the way of what the bass is doing. Is this pretty common, and if so, what other ways can I make room for the bass to shine? I often just mess around with bass notes under a chord progression I've already written. Sometimes this ends up changing the chords, changing the sound, and ultimately changing the feeling I had found before I started on bass, so I'm not a huge fan of this method. Here's an example of some good interesting bass (in my opinion)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3yHzw_JHTY

Another thing I find and enjoy are bass riffs. Crumb has some very tasty bass lines. How do you come up with something like this? (bass riffs start at :35) Is it simply a nice riff or is there a method behind creating something like this? I love this music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSozRSOHBKo

Lastly, what relationship should the bass have with the drums and the vocals? Everywhere I look I see people talk about getting the bass and drums to lock together, playing off of each other, but what does this actually mean? Half the time I listen to a song the bass is so low in the mix I can barely tell what it's doing, so I have a hard time focusing on how it works with the drums. As far as vocals go, I've read that many producers will hold off on finalizing bass lines because they want to make sure it's going to fit with the vocals. What do they mean? Is this strictly an issue of making sure the notes play nice together, or is it rhythmic as well?

5. Drums

This area is probably my next weakest. What I'm most concerned with when it comes to drums and rhythm in general is the pulse. If I have a beat with hi-hat playing 8th notes, kick on Beats 1 and 3, snare on beats 2 and 4, it's a pretty simple pattern. Now if I keep the same tempo, same "pulse" of the downbeat, but I am now playing hi-hat 8th notes, kick on beat 1, snare on beat 3, the entire vibe of the groove is different. It's almost slower? But it's not, because the tempo hasn't changed, the pulse is the same. What is happening here?

I find a lot of music that I enjoy that uses drum patterns that keep the same tempo, same pulse, but the pulse kind of gets lost in the music? If I keep track of the pulse with my foot or by moving my head, it eventually catches me again, and all is well. I see this a lot with The Dillinger Escape Plan. The song below is a great example of what I'm having trouble with. I can find the pulse of the song easily, but at the :20 mark you get thrown into the abyss, and it's not until 1:28 when you start to catch any sort of groove again, but now the snare is hitting on the upbeat so it doesn't feel rested yet. At 1:36 the snare is back to the downbeat and all is well again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p4tQUBtsBw

So how are drum grooves like this made? How do I "dance around the pulse" so to speak? When the drums come in with the snare on the upbeat, how do I do that? I feel like if I could figure this out, I'd have a lot more control over the listener's emotions, instead of just putting a beat down that fits.

A final example of this "dancing around the pulse" thing, is from King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard. The video is an entire live concert so no need to watch it all unless you find that you enjoy their music. I have watched the entire video, and one thing that fascinated me was that I could keep a pulse through most if not all of the concert. The same pulse, just me bouncing my head up and down for over an hour. A great example of this is from 4:45 to 5:05. If you start there you can catch the pulse, and then they transition into another song. The next song has a different tempo, but the pulse is still there. When the guitar comes in at 5:05 it almost feels as if it's playing off of the pulse we kept from the last song? The only way I can think to do this is to write a song, and then using metric modulation change tempo for the next song. Is this a thing? I've never found this anywhere else but this live performance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wOxGaG4aVA

6. Vocal melody

Rick Beato has talked quite a bit about vocal melody in his videos, and one thing he points out is the use of chord tones. He goes as far as saying it's how to write good melodies. Is this always the case, and if not, do you have examples where this isn't the case? How does this relate to chord melody?

7. Putting it all together

If you've made it this far thank you. You are a kind person. The only real dream I have in life is to write music that I'm finally happy with, so I've been trying to come up with a writing process. Are there any theories or books out there that account for all of these things? I feel like all of music, specifically harmony, seems to be linked together in a way that I just don't understand yet. I feel like I can move from any chord, any scale, to any other chord or scale in any key, but I just don't know how. I'll end with a final example from my favorite band at the moment. This doesn't sound like any type of functional harmony to me, what is this? Music starts at :28.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYDq4LTAwD8

I feel that if I figure out these 7 things, I might finally be able to play the noise that I hear in my head. Thanks for your time and any help you can give.

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ophiel27 wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:29 pmHere's an example from Fredrik of Meshuggah below. What is he even playing here? It doesn't seem to be part of any scale that I know, and it seems to neglect the rest of what is happening musically. What is this called? Is this atonal playing?
Yep! Atonality is a distinct characteristic of Meshuggah's music, arguably just as much as the polymetrics they're known to utilize.
My solo projects:
Hekkräiser (experimental) | MFG38 (electronic/soundtrack) | The Santtu Pesonen Project (metal/prog)

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Hey thanks for the help! Just knowing that it's atonal playing is going to help me out a lot. 3:04-3:28 of Dancers to a Discordant System still gets me every time I hear it

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I think you're asking questions without understanding some concepts that would give you an understanding of theory to the extent that you wouldn't need to ask those questions.

As the post is so long I won't try to address all of them, but my suggestion would be that you study theory more methodically. I don't think you have a complete understanding of what intervals, scales and harmony are, and a better understanding of those concepts would really help you out. The answers to your questions would be evident if you work through these concepts.

There are concepts such as compound meter, dotted notes, polyrhythm and syncopation that would answer some of your drum questions, and while your bass questions are a little vague, I think you would get answers from listening to other people's music rather than getting answers from theory.

My suggestion overall is that you study theory from the beginning and work through any materials in the correct order - theory learning works best if you allow yourself to build knowledge on top of everything you have previously learned.

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ophiel27 wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:29 pm From my understanding, modulating with a shared tonal center would be something like moving from C Ionian to C aeolian. This keeps the 1st note of the scale as C. The tonic has the root note of C and if I move to C aeolian I introduce 3 flats but the piece still centers around C. In this way I can borrow chords from any mode to add color and change the feeling of the music, but I can always come home to C. Doing so would be an example of modal interchange. Is this correct? This seems to be very common in the music I listen to.
Just in terms of your terminology/definitions, that is not a modulation; modulate means to move and a modulation in terms of tonality means a key change; then, modes are not keys. Then, owing to the latter aspect, you don't treat modes in terms of tonal harmony. You can call it modal interchange but that term is historical, within the Common Practice Period and refers to the major and minor <modes> rather than the Church or Greek modes. Albeit jazz theory has come to use it in that sense recently.

Coincidently you came up with the basic equivalence of major and minor, but I would like to point out that there is no reason to have two names for major/minor particularly as the modes do not represent tonality and in themselves are from some other place, and do this other thing. Ionian vs major, the former is represented by eg., Indian Classical music where it's not about leading tone belonging to a V chord, there are other principles in a raga for that tone; or Frank Zappa's Watermelon in Easter Hay is a good example of Ionian. All that one does is IV - I, and it starts off with D# against the A chord, having no resemblance at all to a leading tone to its I, E.

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But as to your use of it, the CPP modal interchange does exactly as you describe, borrowing harmonies from a tonic's parallel other mode.

I always caution use of chords on modes because once you make a major/minor 7 it tends towards the dominant seventh chord. If you figure you have 7 chords just like it's a key, you run into the D and Ab fr. C Aeolian occurring both in its putative ii chord and its VII7, and, conditioned to hear tonal harmonies as most Westerners you want to be careful it's not V7 of Eb major. This is why I define tonality vs modes so strictly. You will find rock music doing say III and VII to i, simpler elemental changes.

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ophiel27 wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:29 pm 3. chord scale relationships & harmony

While we're here, I believe that almost all chords are part of some scale, is that correct?
You could justify just about anything like that, but I would say focus on usage and how things work in this, that or the other thing, contextually.

Let me give an example: let's build a sonority, we can call it a chord, no worries, by perfect fifths very simply.
C G D A E B F# C# G# D# A# (Bb) F; or C G D Eb Bb F Gb Db Ab A E B.

There's your 'full chromatic' but is it about the chromatic scale really?
What's the idea? A lot of color, but the chromatic scale is kind of dry... in terms of interest, is that very happening?
The point I want is that this is coincidental. So what. There's multiplicity in this stack and once you have an idea other ideas might be generated; IE., rather than just this *list* you may find a number of (eg., scalar or scalar fragment) possibilities.
The chromatic scale _as a recipe_ while on the extreme side may be illustrative, I mean it kind of isn't.

Symmetrical Octatonic coincides with some things but a single key doesn't contain it; here is a scalar object which may or may not be used tonally. OK, C Db Eb E F#/Gb G A Bb, in can be seen as C7b9 #9 #11 13, or Gb7b9 #9 13 but is that scale a property of that vertical construction per se?

You mention wrong notes; sometimes defying a prescription is just what you need. I like working with someone who, while I have outlined the basic material just does something else MORE INTERESTING. The 'b7' against the Major 7th chord could be the exact piquancy. :shrug:

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