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Dave, I hear you re: B3 and Rhodes, however do you not think that since ST came out they are B3 emulations that are more flexible, more authentic sounding and same with Rhodes since? or what do you think the B3 and Rhodes ST versins have that no other versions on the market has?
If you compare the effects in ST to say those in omnisphere, zebra, alchemy etc. not to even mention the soundtoys and uad's etc that I use, you really do think they stand up? I don't at all.
when you compare the GUI to all mentioned above and so many others like dcam etc you really do think it does stand up?
I don't at all.....
In a sense it is like comparing the presets in AT2 vs AT3...AT3 sounds so much better, because technology has moved on and improved on such things...
rsp

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zvenx wrote:Dave, I hear you re: B3 and Rhodes, however do you not think that since ST came out they are B3 emulations that are more flexible, more authentic sounding and same with Rhodes since? or what do you think the B3 and Rhodes ST versins have that no other versions on the market has?
In a sense it is like comparing the presets in AT2 vs AT3...AT3 sounds so much better, because technology has moved on and improved on such things...
rsp
I am sure a fantasy ST3 will be so much better than the current ST2.5 as well. But it doesn't exist yet. Before AT3, AT2 was GREAT! It was just fine and still is. So I am not saying that things can't be improved. I have a long list! Actually, I think there's a Facebook page IK has (Peter would know) with people's wish list for an eventual ST3 (with no official announcement of the product though so we have to hold our horses a bit). But, what I am saying is that ST2.5 is not dated or obsolete. Ironically there's nothing ELSE on the market (besides a fantasy ST3) that I can think of that would do what I get out of ST2.5 (and that includes the sounds that were developed for it that have a particular character).

By the way, when I made the B3 and Rhodes comparison... I was not saying ST2.5 has a better organ or EP than other software. That's not what I meant. I meant that the B3 is old (an actual one) and the Rhodes is too (although they just made a new one!) and so is a Piano, so is a Pultec, so is a Neve, so are Blue Jeans... but they're not out-dated. If it works it works! If it does a certain something that has its appeal then it is still valid, useful, worth getting etc. Sure, if something came along that was much better at that same thing AND captured the same character that made it great then sure, perhaps then it would be obsolete.... even though still useful to someone else and maybe just at a lower price!

But I don't think it is. I think it is a viable product that has its place. Maybe it IS time that the price came down though. It has been out a while. But it's musical function is still great for a "rompler" (even if far surpassed if judged as a full-featured sampler - which it never was supposed to be anyway). There aren't enough romplers in software actually... if you compare to the hardware keyboard and module world. It's hard to do well. That's a lot of sounds to sample and a lot of effects - luckily IK MAKES effects so they can borrow from their own DSP. That's always a plus and of course it is part of my wish list for the future of that platform... so let's see! But for now there are 32 juicy effects in there and cool layering/processing tools on thousands of sounds to play with! I wouldn't dis that too much!

So, complaints aside, I think there's some good life in that one. Those that wanna bash will bash. I am only talking to the people here that are serious about their music and are grabbing hold of some of the concepts being discussed. Even those old videos I did are still watched by people today and I get comments about it (okay, some of them are from rude Youtubers who say "stop talking and play beeoch!" but what can you do? It was an instructional video, not performance!!!). Seriously, a lot of people watch those videos we did back then and get some good tips on ways to use it.

From SR's perspective we make sounds for whatever you use - or spread it around in multiple formats anyway. I am by no means tied just to SampleTank as a format. But it has its place is all I am saying. A musical tool that for many is a staple piece in their set up, myself included.

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I guess we will agree to disagree and I still stand by my assessment on the previous page...years ago SS2 and ST 2 were fine, to me now it is dated...we will agree to disagree.

rsp
sound sculptist

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zvenx wrote: If you compare the effects in ST to say those in omnisphere, zebra, alchemy etc. not to even mention the soundtoys and uad's etc that I use, you really do think they stand up? I don't at all.
Edit: Oh the "effects"... I missed that, sorry. I was thinking of the overall sound so read below with that in mind... but with regard to the built-in effects, I think certain ones do and some can be a lot better. The compressor, limiter, parametric EQ and lofi effects in particular I find to be among the best I've heard in a VI plug-in and at the very least they have a flavor to them that is unique if we don't compare them any other way... so that, the delay and phaser are all tops to me. I can imagine DIFFERENT flavors and I am sure there will be some day (as there are in TR3 and AT3).

Now for the broader comparison...

---------

By the same token can you sonically make the same thing in Omnisphere, Zebra (whatever that is) or Alchemy? First of all, not if you don't have the thousands of Sonic Reality sounds in it like you do in SampleTank. That alone has its own unique character... but you could eventually have those Sonic Reality sounds in Reason, Kontakt or maybe even Alchemy at some point which I'd love to do because I am a big fan of Ben's work. He's just brilliant and a really nice guy to boot. But each of those platforms - even WITH these same samples - is going to have different character in how it is processed and treated. A different "flavor".

It is not a competition on which VI can have the most bad-ass synthesis or bells and whistles. If it was then things like Alchemy and Absynth might "win". But, it is more down to what results you can get for your music. If Omnisphere does everything you need then great! Or, more likely, if it has a certain host of flavors you like and character to it, way of working etc. then that's a good thing to have, so would Zebra be or Giraffe or Bear or Lion! (just having fun - I am sure it is great). Luckily some of these (not all but some) are affordable enough to have a variety and as long as each of them does something useful then I don't see where the problem is. Also, as long as something else doesn't REPLACE what the other does... none of what you mentioned fully replaces what SampleTank can do. Maybe for an individual's needs it does and maybe that's the case for you. But not for me and thousands of other users who use other things (samples, effects, set up) that are not replaced by anything else except perhaps a fantasy ST3... while that's not here yet I think it is wise to appreciate what ST2.5 has to offer which is quite a lot even still!

Have I broken you down yet? Haha. Anyway, it's all good. All that matters in the end is what each person thinks and feels. If I sparked a new perspective great! If not then those who will appreciate it will continue to do so and those who want to look for other tools instead will do so... we all have our POV. No one is any more "right" than the next. Just different perspectives is all. I hope mine was at least some food for thought!

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I only brought up the effects cause you did,
So, what I am saying is the musicality of the effects in ST2, the easy and speed at which you can access parameters and save back variations plus the overall organic sound of it all adds up to a timeless useful device!

But to me the effects are only one of the many weaknesses of it in 2010.
The filters, the engine, the gui, the search engine etc are all to me major weaknesses compared to other stuff in 2010.
rsp
Last edited by zvenx on Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Squids, any comment on my previous post regarding search speed for sounds and tags. This is where the utility of Sampletank breaks down for me. Faster and more flexible searching with tags is what I would like to see. CAn we antcipate improvements there ? The rest of your comments regarding the quick sound sculpting with effects and layering are the reasons it still has a very valid place in my vst folder.

Squids wrote:
zvenx wrote: If you compare the effects in ST to say those in omnisphere, zebra, alchemy etc. not to even mention the soundtoys and uad's etc that I use, you really do think they stand up? I don't at all.
Edit: Oh the "effects"... I missed that, sorry. I was thinking of the overall sound so read below with that in mind... but with regard to the built-in effects, I think certain ones do and some can be a lot better. The compressor, limiter, parametric EQ and lofi effects in particular I find to be among the best I've heard in a VI plug-in and at the very least they have a flavor to them that is unique if we don't compare them any other way... so that, the delay and phaser are all tops to me. I can imagine DIFFERENT flavors and I am sure there will be some day (as there are in TR3 and AT3).

Now for the broader comparison...

---------

By the same token can you sonically make the same thing in Omnisphere, Zebra (whatever that is) or Alchemy? First of all, not if you don't have the thousands of Sonic Reality sounds in it like you do in SampleTank. That alone has its own unique character... but you could eventually have those Sonic Reality sounds in Reason, Kontakt or maybe even Alchemy at some point which I'd love to do because I am a big fan of Ben's work. He's just brilliant and a really nice guy to boot. But each of those platforms - even WITH these same samples - is going to have different character in how it is processed and treated. A different "flavor".

It is not a competition on which VI can have the most bad-ass synthesis or bells and whistles. If it was then things like Alchemy and Absynth might "win". But, it is more down to what results you can get for your music. If Omnisphere does everything you need then great! Or, more likely, if it has a certain host of flavors you like and character to it, way of working etc. then that's a good thing to have, so would Zebra be or Giraffe or Bear or Lion! (just having fun - I am sure it is great). Luckily some of these (not all but some) are affordable enough to have a variety and as long as each of them does something useful then I don't see where the problem is. Also, as long as something else doesn't REPLACE what the other does... none of what you mentioned fully replaces what SampleTank can do. Maybe for an individual's needs it does and maybe that's the case for you. But not for me and thousands of other users who use other things (samples, effects, set up) that are not replaced by anything else except perhaps a fantasy ST3... while that's not here yet I think it is wise to appreciate what ST2.5 has to offer which is quite a lot even still!

Have I broken you down yet? Haha. Anyway, it's all good. All that matters in the end is what each person thinks and feels. If I sparked a new perspective great! If not then those who will appreciate it will continue to do so and those who want to look for other tools instead will do so... we all have our POV. No one is any more "right" than the next. Just different perspectives is all. I hope mine was at least some food for thought!

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Squids wrote:
Have I broken you down yet? Haha. Anyway, it's all good. All that matters in the end is what each person thinks and feels. If I sparked a new perspective great! If not then those who will appreciate it will continue to do so and those who want to look for other tools instead will do so... we all have our POV. No one is any more "right" than the next. Just different perspectives is all. I hope mine was at least some food for thought!
:-)
you haven't heard of U-he's Zebra? it is probably one of the most popular vst's here on kvr....

You do know I own the product right? so it isn't like breaking me down into buying it. I already did. I just use it probably once a year now...in a good year ;)

rsp

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zvenx wrote:I guess we will agree to disagree and I still stand by my assessment on the previous page...years ago SS2 and ST 2 were fine, to me now it is dated...we will agree to disagree.

rsp
Well I disagree to agree to disagree to agree to disagree! (Just kidding) To each his own of course. But I can't help but think you're probably missing out if you blow it off like that. Luckily it only matters what you think. ;) If you're happy that's the most important thing.

For me, I'm quite happy with my SampleTank! I am also excited about what is coming next week and I have a feeling a lot of other people will be too. I wouldn't want to rain on that parade though with some vague notion that the format is "out of date". If it was then we wouldn't have busted our asses to come up with what we have to offer this month for all current and new SampleTank users. And we're not stupid either. As I said, SampleTank has its place. It as useful today as it ever was... maybe even more-so with this upcoming announcement. But that's all I can say about that for now.

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zvenx wrote:
Squids wrote:
Have I broken you down yet? Haha. Anyway, it's all good. All that matters in the end is what each person thinks and feels. If I sparked a new perspective great! If not then those who will appreciate it will continue to do so and those who want to look for other tools instead will do so... we all have our POV. No one is any more "right" than the next. Just different perspectives is all. I hope mine was at least some food for thought!
:-)
you haven't heard of U-he's Zebra? it is probably one of the most popular vst's here on kvr....

You do know I own the product right? so it isn't like breaking me down into buying it. I already did. I just use it probably once a year now...in a good year ;)

rsp
No, I don't use U-he Zebra but I'll check it out. I don't use OmniSphere either but I know Eric does great work. Alchemy is one of my faves. And yes I DO know you use SampleTank so I am not trying to SELL it to you. But maybe what I am saying will help you or someone else appreciate it more - even if they already have it. Plus I am defending the notion that it is out of date... I whole-heartedly disagree and it would be a shame if others reading this were to start thinking that... especially knowing what revamp vitalization is coming just around the corner.

But, I will check out the Zebra. Noting against it or other animals. I was even in a band called Giraffe! So no problem. ;)

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well hopefully the revamp vitalization will reinvigorate me to use it again :-)
rsp
sound sculptist

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p.s. you are so frigging hard to argue with.......you are always polite and professional, and passionate... Even if we disagree it is clear you believe what you believe.....:-)
cheers for you being you.
rsp

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Squids wrote: The "let me see if SampleTank can get that sound for me" and as long as you have Sonik Synth 2 in there and Miroslav Philharmonik, SampleTron, SampleMoog and the upcoming massive.... woops, I almost spilled the beans
Just my opinion, but I'm hard-pressed to get excited by whatever is coming because...

Part of the problem with Sampletank seeming dated is that SR is one of the only developers making sounds for it. Other sample companies won't touch ST because of its limited features. Now, before I get accused of "bashing", SR does what it does really well. But you guys have a major focus on "vintage" sounds for Sampletank. Old moogs and trons, Ringo drums sounds and such. While that appeals to certain groups of people, there are plenty out there that could care less about the sounds of the Beatles, Hendrix, or other stuff from nearly half a century ago.

Again, you guys do what you do well and SR is indeed the 'go to' place for those kind of sounds, and everyone has different tastes so I'm not bashing.
"a confession without need of absolution, without need of redemption"

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zvenx wrote:I only brought up the effects cause you did,
So, what I am saying is the musicality of the effects in ST2, the easy and speed at which you can access parameters and save back variations plus the overall organic sound of it all adds up to a timeless useful device!

But to me the effects are only one of the many weaknesses of it in 2010.
The filters, the engine, the gui, the search engine etc are all to me major weaknesses compared to other stuff in 2010.
rsp
Effects are an interesting thing. I have some KILLER hardware effects that one could argue have LONG SINCE been "out-dated". Ever open up a Fuzzface? A Univox Superfuzzz? Surely there have been improvements in technology since... but it just so happens they have a unique character to them that I like! Same thing with the effects in SampleTank. As I mentioned, I don't think you're going to find effects in ANYTHING else that have the SAME character as these gems:

SampleTank's - Compressor, Limiter and Parameteric EQ (models of analog gear a la T-Racks), the quirky "LoFi" effect (which other effects CALLED lofi tend to sound completely different such as Kontakt's which is more of a bitcrusher type effect), the phaser (what a powerful multistage phaser with an MXR-ish sound to it!) and some of the others as well.

I think the reverbs could be improved quite a bit and the chorus is so-so... but my favorite chorus is the CE-1 and I like the model IK did of that in AmpliTube (they modeled my own CE-1 actually which I sent over to Italy). So, naturally, I have been begging for awhile that the CE-1 model makes its way into a future SampleTank! That and many other great modeled effects. No doubt it would be GREAT and when that happens we can all celebrate. But for now ST2 still has what it has that nothing else does... and it is good n' useful. Not JUST effects as well but the whole layout, speed of work with everything in one place... a lot of benefits it offers.

Also the filters are really nice and analogy. They have their own sound to them as well... and then there is the biggest factor which is the character of the samples and those are going to be proprietary to whoever sampled them.

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you know maybe that is part of me being unimpressed with many of the SR stuff.
cause as you put it:
Old moogs and trons, Ringo drums sounds and such. While that appeals to certain groups of people, there are plenty out there that could care less about the sounds of the Beatles, Hendrix, or other stuff from nearly half a century ago.
Cause with the exception of old moogs I am exactly like that...never understood what was so big about Hendrix, and I did play in many guitar bands, with endless hendrix covers :-), maybe at the time he was way ahead of his time but in today's context I never got it, and whilst I think the Beatles were probably in the top five greatest pop composers, I never cared much for their sound..And I actually never even thought of it as nearly half a century ago which is what it is...
hmmmm, maybe I am not the target market.
rsp

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vespers75 wrote:
Squids wrote: The "let me see if SampleTank can get that sound for me" and as long as you have Sonik Synth 2 in there and Miroslav Philharmonik, SampleTron, SampleMoog and the upcoming massive.... woops, I almost spilled the beans
Just my opinion, but I'm hard-pressed to get excited by whatever is coming because...

Part of the problem with Sampletank seeming dated is that SR is one of the only developers making sounds for it. Other sample companies won't touch ST because of its limited features. Now, before I get accused of "bashing", SR does what it does really well. But you guys have a major focus on "vintage" sounds for Sampletank. Old moogs and trons, Ringo drums sounds and such. While that appeals to certain groups of people, there are plenty out there that could care less about the sounds of the Beatles, Hendrix, or other stuff from nearly half a century ago.

Again, you guys do what you do well and SR is indeed the 'go to' place for those kind of sounds, and everyone has different tastes so I'm not bashing.
Sonic Reality's Motto is "Sample Everything". We don't ONLY do vintage drums! ;) Maybe that's what you've been seeing a lot of lately. But we've been one of the providers of workstation sounds for YEARS for many of the major hardware manufacturers of keyboards, modules and expansion boards as well as for companies like IK, NI, Propellerheads, Cakewalk, Emagic (pre-Apple), Steinberg, Camel Audio and many others! We have every type of sound you can think of practically from world instruments to orchestral to electronic to acoustic to vintage to modern... for a sample company we're quite diverse!

But, again, if you're looking for a platform that has a wide range of different sound developers than that's something like Kontakt which is probably the most popular for that... and we're there too! That is more of an open ended sampler platform. SampleTank is more of a semi-open rompler... kind of like the Roland synths with expansion boards. No one ever complained there weren't enough libraries from different sound developers for it. But it had all the meat and potatoes you'd want to be able to call it a workhorse... and that's what I am calling SampleTank here. A Sample Workstation "rompler" as opposed to thinking of it as Apples to Apples with something like Kontakt or Halion or other "samplers".

So I don't think you're bashing, no worries. I understand the appeal and agree! I wouldn't expect people to ONLY use Sonic Reality samples. I don't myself and I have every one! But, if you DO like Sonic Reality samples (and IK's- we're not the only ones who sample for that format) and you also like the things you can do in SampleTank, the organic and analog character of it... well, then that should speak for itself! Also each person is able to get more out of it than others depending on their creativity too. I am able to get a LOT out of Sampletank in my musical projects but that may not be the same for someone else. A lot of factors involved.

However, from a sound developer's perspective, I find there are things I can do with the sounds in SampleTank that I cannot do in other formats and visa versa. I also find that the limitation of no streaming has its plus points! More sounds, more portability, laptop use... I can go on about it. But, probably need to talk about something else to make the day more interesting! I think I made my point though... let me see if there's anything else lingering in this discussion that I missed... I don't want to just repeat myself here. ;) You all can make up your own minds!

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