Miroslav Orchestra samples, How were they sampled?

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Count_fuzzball
KVRian
765 posts since 9 Jun, 2008 from Ireland

Post Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:49 am

Just out of interest, how were the original miroslav samples sampled? I mean by how many semitone gaps were each note sampled at?

Also, were they mostly taken at one velocity layer only?

I'm just basing this on the filesizes found here:

http://www.ilio.com/miraslov/stringens/cdrom.html

http://www.ilio.com/miraslov/woodbrass/cdrom.html

Thanks guys.

Count_fuzzball
KVRian
765 posts since 9 Jun, 2008 from Ireland

Post Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:25 am

bump

Squids
Sonic Reality Head Chef
8399 posts since 11 Mar, 2002 from Florida

Post Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:09 am

Miroslav sampled most sounds working as one velocity layer although he did sample various levels of loudness and intense playing (pp to FF). There's much more sampled than what was released in his original libraries (the ones you can still get from ILIO and also on www.esoundz.com in Akai and other classic sampler formats). When we did Miroslav Philharmonik and the Miroslav Refills used 2-3 times as much material as the original library because we bought out all of the original archive sessions and we went through it so we could not only bring the price down from the original $4,000 to 8 times less but also make it even larger, sometimes with more samples across the keyboard and sometimes more dynamics.

In some cases there are even more samples recorded than were even released by us and larger sized instruments with even more articulations will eventually be released for the Infinite Player a la carte. So, for instance, you'll be able to get a deluxe solo violin from the Miroslav archives that features 12 different key switching articulations, more samples across the keys (in some cases chromatic) and interacting dynamic levels. I say "interacting" because one way is to control it with velocity but another cool way, especially with sustain sounds like strings, is to switch via the mod wheel or another continuous controller. This way you can morph from a pianissimo sound to a forte sound like a real string section might once they've already started the note. You can't do that with velocity.

So, basically, what you have here is:

1. The original Miroslav Library - good if you own any of those samplers or want at least SOMETHING from Miroslav to import into any sampler you've got.

2. Dedicated SampleTank and Reason format versions from the Philharmonik plug-in (powered by SampleTank) or Miroslav Refills for Reason. These contain 2-3 times as many samples as the original library and many of them are larger.

3. Individual a la carte instruments which will eventually be released for our Infinite Player (Kontakt format) where you get the rest of what was originally sampled in those sessions without any concern for size limits because they are set for hard disc streaming.

#1 and #2 are available today. #3 is coming and I can't say when yet as it hasn't been officially announced... except that we've said that we will be releasing all our best sample archives.
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idragosani
KVRist
166 posts since 23 Nov, 2005 from Germantown MD

Post Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:28 am

Squids wrote:I say "interacting" because one way is to control it with velocity but another cool way, especially with sustain sounds like strings, is to switch via the mod wheel or another continuous controller. This way you can morph from a pianissimo sound to a forte sound like a real string section might once they've already started the note. You can't do that with velocity.
Is there any way this can be done currently with Philharmonik?
"In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden;
If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world."
-- Jelaleddin Rumi

Squids
Sonic Reality Head Chef
8399 posts since 11 Mar, 2002 from Florida

Post Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:40 am

idragosani wrote:
Squids wrote:I say "interacting" because one way is to control it with velocity but another cool way, especially with sustain sounds like strings, is to switch via the mod wheel or another continuous controller. This way you can morph from a pianissimo sound to a forte sound like a real string section might once they've already started the note. You can't do that with velocity.
Is there any way this can be done currently with Philharmonik?
Well, there is a feature I've been asking for that may eventually be implemented which is a positive AND negative midi control assignment possibility. I think in a future update to the ST engine this may be possible (but don't quote me on it, I am only guessing as I don't make SampleTank!). If that feature was there then it would be possible to make a crossfade between at least two dynamics or between a non-vibrato and vibrato... some creative things can be done. We would have done them when we programmed Philhamonik years ago if it was possible but it wasn't because that feature was missing.

Also, we DID set up a creative way to do articulation switching but... since it didn't work 100% smooth we left it out of the manual but it is still there. It is done by control switching and manipulating the solos and mutes which are midi controllable. You use a set of midi controllers (now I forget offhand which ones because even I don't use this feature and I was the one who asked for it to be done!) but it is documented somewhere in our forum... or actually you can see which ones just by looking into a combi that does it - if you see a lot of SOLO and MUTES being controlled by a CC then that is what it is! It's simple really. You hit one control button on your keyboard and it turns one articulation's solo ON and it mutes all the other articulations.
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idragosani
KVRist
166 posts since 23 Nov, 2005 from Germantown MD

Post Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:48 am

Squids wrote:You hit one control button on your keyboard and it turns one articulation's solo ON and it mutes all the other articulations.
That sound interesting, will have to try it out. I don't play via keyboard but do MIDI orchestration with a sequencer... I take it all of the articulations need to be on the same MIDI channel?
"In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden;
If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world."
-- Jelaleddin Rumi

Squids
Sonic Reality Head Chef
8399 posts since 11 Mar, 2002 from Florida

Post Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:23 am

idragosani wrote:
Squids wrote:You hit one control button on your keyboard and it turns one articulation's solo ON and it mutes all the other articulations.
That sound interesting, will have to try it out. I don't play via keyboard but do MIDI orchestration with a sequencer... I take it all of the articulations need to be on the same MIDI channel?
Correct
http://www.sonicreality.com
http://www.esoundz.com
My album with guests Steve Hackett, Keith Emerson and more: http://www.davekerzner.com
Sonic Reality Progressive Rock Project: http://www.facebook.com/sonicelements

nexussynth
KVRian
540 posts since 1 Jan, 2004

Post Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:10 pm

the best way to achieve the effects you are trying to get with the Philharmonik is to do it the way Miroslav intended in the orginal akai version: use multiple tracks in your sequencer for the same part and then fade these tracks in and out as the case may be with track envelopes or CC. yeah, it's a primitive way of working and hearkens back to the early days of sampled orchestra work but it does work pretty well sometimes. this is also Miroslav's method of changing articulations and bowing.

it's all outlined very well in Paul Gilreath's book "Guide To Midi Orchestration" at least in the old edition of the book. he was a big fan of the original miro library and gives detailed methods for using it. maybe you can get a used copy somewhere online?
"..What is simple, is simply seen.."

idragosani
KVRist
166 posts since 23 Nov, 2005 from Germantown MD

Post Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:23 pm

nexussynth wrote:the best way to achieve the effects you are trying to get with the Philharmonik is to do it the way Miroslav intended in the orginal akai version: use multiple tracks in your sequencer for the same part and then fade these tracks in and out as the case may be with track envelopes or CC. yeah, it's a primitive way of working and hearkens back to the early days of sampled orchestra work but it does work pretty well sometimes. this is also Miroslav's method of changing articulations and bowing.

it's all outlined very well in Paul Gilreath's book "Guide To Midi Orchestration" at least in the old edition of the book. he was a big fan of the original miro library and gives detailed methods for using it. maybe you can get a used copy somewhere online?
I am familiar with the technique, I've used it before... not my favorite way of working, though. I usually use Philharmonik's velocity switching, it works fine for most things, but being able to crossfade smoothly between samples using a CC would be nice, too.
"In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden;
If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world."
-- Jelaleddin Rumi

nexussynth
KVRian
540 posts since 1 Jan, 2004

Post Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:13 pm

idragosani wrote:
nexussynth wrote:the best way to achieve the effects you are trying to get with the Philharmonik is to do it the way Miroslav intended in the orginal akai version: use multiple tracks in your sequencer for the same part and then fade these tracks in and out as the case may be with track envelopes or CC. yeah, it's a primitive way of working and hearkens back to the early days of sampled orchestra work but it does work pretty well sometimes. this is also Miroslav's method of changing articulations and bowing.

it's all outlined very well in Paul Gilreath's book "Guide To Midi Orchestration" at least in the old edition of the book. he was a big fan of the original miro library and gives detailed methods for using it. maybe you can get a used copy somewhere online?
I am familiar with the technique, I've used it before... not my favorite way of working, though. I usually use Philharmonik's velocity switching, it works fine for most things, but being able to crossfade smoothly between samples using a CC would be nice, too.
oh yeah, i know it's a pain but that was the way the library was conceived to be used. nowadays we have all sorts of modern software samplers and DAWs to get the job done and the Philharmonik is looking more than a bit long-in-the-tooth so to speak.

i like what squids and IK did with the ST version but it won't make it work like a modern library. not even Kontakt unless there is unreleased samples of alternate bowing and multiple attack samples etc.

so the advantage of the Miro is and always will be the SOUND of it. sometimes this library can fool you into thinking you're hearing a real orchestra, I'm sure your aware.

the filters do help with changing the timbre as you get softer in a realistic way if you switch to the 6db/per octatve filters. the brass sounds better imho with the 12db filters.
"..What is simple, is simply seen.."

Squids
Sonic Reality Head Chef
8399 posts since 11 Mar, 2002 from Florida

Post Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:03 pm

Partially true and very good points but also partially not true with regard to its modernization. If you watch the videos I did on Philharmonik which you can find now on www.youtube.com/ikmultimedia I believe or on IK's site you can see some demonstrations of things you can do with Miroslav sounds but with modern technology such as IK's "Stretch" that are pretty unique. There aren't too many samplers that can allow you to bend the note without changing the speed of the vibrato, tremolo or flutter! So there are some modern things like that to enjoy on top of just the basic concept of - love it for the sound of it. However, yes, the main thing about it is the charm, warmth and inspirational sound that is all its own so... if you like that sound (which many do including myself) then you can make it work despite it not having every modern performance feature in it like alternate bowing etc.

That said, I own all of the original Miroslav orchestral sessions and there is still more material that was never released yet (a bit of a painful process going through it because it is documented and slated in several different languages... and not much said in English), more samples across the keyboard, more articulations, more bowing alternates... But not in ALL cases consistently. So, what we're going to do is make a handful of deluxe instruments out of what we can from it for the Infinite Player. Whatever might warrant it depending on the material. For example, on the choirs Miroslav actually sampled almost every syllable you can think of! Even more than what is already included in the Refills and Philharmonik Plug-in (which is already over 3 times what was in the original $4,000 orch & choir sample libs). So, anyway, I am going to make some mega choir patch/instrument that switches in real time all of those articulations. It's a bit of work but I've been wanting to do it for myself all this time anyway so... you have that to look forward to if you're into that sort of approach. It will be a little while. We have to get some other products in the cue out first before we dive back into the ol' Miro archives but I've been sorting through it here and there to see what sort of cool secrets there are. I've found some gems. Kind of fun! Like sample hunting. That's how I found those cool "session noises" you have where you hear people rustling, coughing, dropping bows... I had to hunt through the sessions for those separated noises so you could add it back in (think about it... don't you sometimes hear those kinds of sounds on classical recordings?). It's funny how you can fool the ear into thinking you're using a real orchestra just by adding in a strategically placed cough into your sequence!!! Haha.
http://www.sonicreality.com
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My album with guests Steve Hackett, Keith Emerson and more: http://www.davekerzner.com
Sonic Reality Progressive Rock Project: http://www.facebook.com/sonicelements

Count_fuzzball
KVRian
765 posts since 9 Jun, 2008 from Ireland

Post Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:51 am

Just out of interest Squids, Does the sampletank 2 format use a compression algorithim?

I was comparing the sizes of the original AKAI sizes to the ones found on the Miroslav site.

for example:
AKAI
23 VS 1
9.92 MB

Philharmonik:
23 Violins 1 9.70 MB

Is there some sort of compression thing going on here?

Thanks.

http://www.ilio.com/miraslov/stringens/cdrom.html

http://www.ikstore.com/Cgi/STSounds.cgi ... AND&page=4

Squids
Sonic Reality Head Chef
8399 posts since 11 Mar, 2002 from Florida

Post Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:42 am

Count_fuzzball wrote:Just out of interest Squids, Does the sampletank 2 format use a compression algorithim?

I was comparing the sizes of the original AKAI sizes to the ones found on the Miroslav site.

for example:
AKAI
23 VS 1
9.92 MB

Philharmonik:
23 Violins 1 9.70 MB

Is there some sort of compression thing going on here?

Thanks.

http://www.ilio.com/miraslov/stringens/cdrom.html

http://www.ikstore.com/Cgi/STSounds.cgi ... AND&page=4
No data compression is used on Miroslav Philharmonik. SampleTank technically does have the ability to do a 2 times compression but we don't use that anymore (we did in Sonic Synth 1 a little bit but... its not necessary with the amount of RAM you can get these days).

If a sound is smaller in size by that little it could be because we took out a bad sounding sample perhaps or more likely in that case we moved a loop or truncated off excess material after a loop (the original Miroslav Akai libraries were a little bit sloppy sometimes so it was a lot of work relooping and fixing it up). Sometimes you'll find the sounds to be larger in size in Philharmonik which means that we used more samples than what was in the original. There's more of that coming as well as I described previously.
http://www.sonicreality.com
http://www.esoundz.com
My album with guests Steve Hackett, Keith Emerson and more: http://www.davekerzner.com
Sonic Reality Progressive Rock Project: http://www.facebook.com/sonicelements

Stevie1
KVRist
88 posts since 22 May, 2005

Post Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:14 pm

Sorry to bring up this old thread but I found the info very interesting.
I have PM and would really love to use those sounds in Kontakt (scripting possibilities).
Now I know, it's not possible to import the ST format into Kontakt.
Is there some crossgrade option for PM users to update to the Orchestral Kapsule modules?
And if so, do these modules contain the same or even more amount of samples than PM?

Cheers,

Stevie

Squids
Sonic Reality Head Chef
8399 posts since 11 Mar, 2002 from Florida

Post Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:27 pm

Stevie1 wrote:Sorry to bring up this old thread but I found the info very interesting.
I have PM and would really love to use those sounds in Kontakt (scripting possibilities).
Now I know, it's not possible to import the ST format into Kontakt.
Is there some crossgrade option for PM users to update to the Orchestral Kapsule modules?
And if so, do these modules contain the same or even more amount of samples than PM?

Cheers,

Stevie
Just get this. It has everything the original $4,000 orchestra library had and more:

http://www.esoundz.com/details.php?Prod ... code=KVRIW
http://www.sonicreality.com
http://www.esoundz.com
My album with guests Steve Hackett, Keith Emerson and more: http://www.davekerzner.com
Sonic Reality Progressive Rock Project: http://www.facebook.com/sonicelements

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