Image Line

mclovestrina · Post by **mclovestrina** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:30 am

Hi

I'm interested in getting myself FLS this month (actually just waiting if the's gonna be a Christmas sale). But I'm a bit concerned with all these comments from some of the users here regarding the policies and the updates of IL due to the recent EULA ruling.

What I want to know is if I'm still gonna be entitled to future updates if I get myself a copy of FLS now. BTW I'm from the Philippines anyways, so I don't think the EULA law applies. And also coming from an impoverished country, you can just imagine how much commitment this requires from me to actually buy a license. But choosing another DAW is not an option.
Mac

wasi · Post by **wasi** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:24 pm

If you are referring to the thread in the Market Place... all comments there (mine and others) were about people buying second hand licenses in spite of the EULA from Image Line saying licenses can't be transferred. Based on the EU Court decision, you may be able to force IL to allow you to transfer your copy of the software itself and the right to use it (if you live in the EU etc. etc.), but you can't force them to keep providing free updates to the new owner. The lifetime free updates are 'attached' to the original buyer and remain non-transferable. In my humble opinion.

Lifetime free updates is an integral part of IL's branding and frnakly I don't see how or why they'd be changing that any time soon. just be sure to buy from Image Line or an offical reseller like JRRshop. Again, in my humble opinion.

If you want total peace of mind, write Image Line directly. They don't hang out here that much and/or may not want to re-open this whole (rather pointless) discussion. The last one didn't go too well...

sjm · Post by **sjm** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:01 am

In theory you'd assume that if you buy FL while they're still offering lifetime free updates, they will honour that. They may of course at some point decide not to offer the free updates anymore - which should theoretically only apply to those that buy the software after that date.

In practice they might decide to rebrand the software or something similar in order to justify no longer offering the updates. It's a looong time ago (2003???) and I didn't own FL back then, but I seem to remember that there was some controversy when they launched the various "editions" that they still offer; some of the editions aren't fully featured and I think that they only offered older users free updates to one of the lesser versions when they first came out. Some people weren't that happy about it IIRC. This was a very long time ago and I can only find a couple of vague references to this on the net - maybe someone else on here might remember what I'm talking about.

There's a brief mention of it here: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=133776

atomic_(no)afro wrote: Nope, upgrades are free. The only sort of exception was when Fruity Loops officially became FLStudio. At that point, it became fully tiered, with old FL users getting the mid-range product for free, with the option of upgrading to "Producer" version for a fee.

I personally have no beef with IL at this moment in time

mclovestrina · Post by **mclovestrina** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:24 am

Thanks a lot for enlightening me guys. I wasn't really aware of any issue with regards to this until I checked the Marketplace here in KVR.

I intentionally wanted them to clear this out in public actually since I was a little anxious of not reading anything about it anywhere else and so I was afraid that they would deny it in the future if I ask them privately. But thanks to you guys I'm now a little less worried.

wasi · Post by **wasi** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:08 am

mclovestrina wrote:I intentionally wanted them to clear this out in public actually since I was a little anxious of not reading anything about it anywhere else and so I was afraid that they would deny it in the future if I ask them privately. But thanks to you guys I'm now a little less worried.

You're not reading about it anywhere because you could say it's a manufactured issue by people that interpreted the EU Court ruling (or more likely: what peole who had only read about it were saying about it) to mean that they could now transfer their IL products with all benefits.

But really nothing has changed, that's why you're not reading about it. Just read the EULA, that's your contract with IL. Or make a few printouts from the website when you buy if you feel safer that way. I've had nothing but brief and satisfying experiences with IL, but you'll get a quicker reply from them on their own forums.

ouroboros · Post by **ouroboros** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:41 am

wasi wrote:You're not reading about it anywhere because you could say it's a manufactured issue by people that interpreted the EU Court ruling (or more likely: what peole who had only read about it were saying about it) to mean that they could now transfer their IL products with all benefits....But really nothing has changed, that's why you're not reading about it. Just read the EULA, that's your contract with IL.

A fine post - I totally agree. IL has been good to me for what, 8 years? Never paid for an update

Things just keep getting better, too.

Now for my shill part - you can get 10% off when you buy it if you click my sig. And many other people's here, too. Once you buy an IL product, you can even get credit for referrals. They really have been one of only a very few companies I have been really satisfied with. One suggestion - if possible, buy at least the producer version. It doesn't have all the big synths, but it has lifetime updates and everything you will need to get started.

mclovestrina · Post by **mclovestrina** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:56 am

I'm planning on getting the Signature edition for Directwave, Sytrus and Maximus. But I'm still waiting for the Christmas/Thank You sale before making a purchase so that I will still have enough money left to get either Harmless or Harmor.

OT: Although I'm leaning on getting Harmless at the moment since it looks easier to figure and not mention cheaper than Harmor, I'm afraid that I'll eventually outgrow its limitations and Harmor seems to have a more steady development.

sjm · Post by **sjm** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:25 am

wasi wrote:You're not reading about it anywhere because you could say it's a manufactured issue by people that interpreted the EU Court ruling (or more likely: what people who had only read about it were saying about it) to mean that they could now transfer their IL products with all benefits.

At the risk of derailing the thread, if you live in the EU you can sell your software/license; local law supersedes the EULA, which is why contracts always contain a severability clause/salvatorius. Imagine if this wasn't the case - you could make it legal to kill people by signing a contract with an assassin including the provision that there will be no legal ramifications if the contract took precedence over the law. That's obviously not the case, and the same applies to the EULA. This is also stated explicitly by the court, but you'd know that if you'd bothered to read the texts (pot calling the kettle black and all that).

EU Court of Justice wrote: Therefore, even if the licence agreement prohibits a further transfer, the rightholder can no longer oppose the resale of that copy.

I think that's pretty clear - there's not much left open to interpretation here.

Of course, this only applies to the EU - in the Philippines it won't make the slightest difference unless Philippine law includes applicable provisions.

Sorry for the OT.

mclovestrina · Post by **mclovestrina** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:18 pm

But from what I understand, IL can make your license ineligible from receiving future updates if you sell it to another user? So I guess it will be safer for me to steer clear of those used FLS licenses.

wasi · Post by **wasi** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:27 pm

Emphasis mine:

(66) It must be observed that the exhaustion of the right of distribution of a copy of a computer program under Article 4(2) of Directive 2009/24 only concerns copies which have been the subject of a first sale in the European Union by the copyright holder or with his consent. It does not relate to contracts for services, such as maintenance agreements, which are separable from such a sale and were concluded, possibly for an unlimited period, on the occasion of the sale.

And for the sake of completeness (additions in [] mine):

(67) None the less, the conclusion of a maintenance agreement, such as those at issue in the main proceedings [i.e. a year free updates from Oracle], on the occasion of the sale of an intangible copy of a computer program has the effect that the copy originally purchased is patched and updated. Even if the maintenance agreement is for a limited period, the functionalities corrected, altered or added on the basis of such an agreement [up until re-sale] form an integral part of the copy originally downloaded and can be used by the acquirer of the copy for an unlimited period, even in the event that the acquirer subsequently decides not to renew the maintenance agreement.

The latter was a rebuttal of the argument Oracle made that the patched version that was re-sold did not correspond to the original copy that was bought and downloaded, hence there was no exhaustion of the right to distribution and the patched version could not be re-sold. Implicitly this states that the re-sold version must be the patched version, but, as stated in para. 66, further patches are not enclosed, because this is an agreement between the original parties only.

Indeed, I don't see much to interpret.

wasi · Post by **wasi** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:47 pm

mclovestrina wrote:But from what I understand, IL can make your license ineligible from receiving future updates if you sell it to another user? So I guess it will be safer for me to steer clear of those used FLS licenses.

Definitely. The EU Court says you may sell a legally acquired copy and the second hand buyer may use it without violating copyright. But you can't sell or buy "the EULA" second hand unless the original seller allows it. So whether or not you receive any updates or support is entirely up to IL. Their contract covering updates and support is with the original buyer and he can't sell you that.

mclovestrina · Post by **mclovestrina** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:52 pm

OK OT. But I really need help deciding now. Just received an email update from Imageline regarding their end of the world sale. All plugins at 45$. Making it very hard for me to wait if theyre really gonna have a Christmas sale soon. I am seriously thinking of getting the Producer edition instead of the Signature and spend the 100$ difference to get plugins like Gross Beat, Sytrus and Harmor. I can do without Maximus(as I can get Limiter6 for free instead) and DW for now.

I can't find any info regarding upgrading editions for an account. Is it possible to upgrade into a Signature edition if I just get a Producer edition now.

If theyre gonna have an FLS sale at any time now, I will literally buy it within seconds.

Man I'm literally shaking with excitement.

sjm · Post by **sjm** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:52 pm

Yes, you're right, the question of liftime updates is kind of unanswered (in terms of how IL would handle it). I guess I jumped the gun here and didn't initially interpret "with all the benefits" to mean the right to lifetime updates. For the sake of brevity, I cut the part of the original post where you wrote

"Just read the EULA, that's your contract with IL."

This made me interpret your post as meaning you thought that you can't transfer the license at all because it says so in the EULA. I thought you meant that the recipient wouldn't have the full benefits of using the software without hinderance (i.e. relating to the question of whether IL would revoke transferred licenses, as has been mooted in the various other posts).

I now see that's probably not what you meant.

mclovestrina · Post by **mclovestrina** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:50 pm

update on my previous comment regarding the upgrades.

FL Studio Signature Bundle - Signature Bundle is a 'bundle' including Producer Edition + a collection of our 'signature' (most advanced) plugins. It's the cost effective way to get your hands on our best gear. If you already own some of the plugins in the Signature Bundle, the Image-Line store will automatically deduct these from the upgrade price.

wasi · Post by **wasi** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:21 pm

@sjm: Yeah, by "with all benefits" I meant the lifetime updates and support. Shockingly, that may mean we agree.

@mclovestrina: I really feel of all the IL stuff you absolutely must have Harmor and $45 is an insane price for such a deep synth. But it's not in the Signature Edition, so...

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