Help me decide between Ableton & Bitwig please...
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- KVRer
- 9 posts since 29 Apr, 2018
If I haven't had used Ableton for some years I would probably go with Bitwig. Especially if you produce genres where you can use all the modulation possibilities. Workflow is kinda similar I would say.
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- KVRer
- 20 posts since 11 Feb, 2019
I was a long time Ableton user producing Ambient and Downtempo and switched to Bitwig because of it's flexibility and "openness".
If you are kind a crazy producer who likes to tweak around and max out a DAW I would definately recommend Bitwig over Ableton Live.
If you are kind a crazy producer who likes to tweak around and max out a DAW I would definately recommend Bitwig over Ableton Live.
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- KVRist
- 463 posts since 17 Mar, 2018
I tend to agree with this. Though signal for ableton along with the new automation tools, and max for live in general...ableton is back in the game for sure.hayash wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:15 pm I was a long time Ableton user producing Ambient and Downtempo and switched to Bitwig because of it's flexibility and "openness".
If you are kind a crazy producer who likes to tweak around and max out a DAW I would definately recommend Bitwig over Ableton Live.
After taking so many turns, getting back into studio one (due to bitwig and ableton being way less efficient) and then being really disappiointed by the new Waveform.....i have decided to do this -
Reaper and bitwig.
I am gonna leave it at that now. As much as i love live with push...and i really really do, i need to consolidate. bottom line is bitwig is inspiring to use. It is exactly what you want when you use a program like that.
Reaper is increaibly stable, really efficient (so i can run my super demanding plugins for mixing) and i can finally customize a DAW exactly how i want. I think that is the balance i have been looking for.
I tend to agree with other posts - it really does depend on what you are doing and what type of application / genre you are involved in.
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machinesworking machinesworking https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=8505 - KVRAF
- 6196 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle
I'm going with some basics here. I'm not a good judge of sticking to one DAW, I use three regularly. These are the differences, similar things or things both cannot do aren't mentioned.
Bitwig-
Does: MPE,
polyphonic aftertouch,
note expression,
sandboxed plug ins (the plug in crashes, not the DAW),
Bitwig clips can contain more than one MIDI or Audio file,
Soon to be built in object oriented environment for creating all kinds of things.
Live Studio-
Does:
Rewire, can run Push 2 in slave mode,
Arguably better third party controller support, although Möss does amazing third party work for Bitwig,
Max, can run pretty much anything at this point, is stable etc.
Max can do video FX even.
If you're a coder, Max is limitless almost at this point.
Massive third party support in terms of devices made in Max, Racks, sample libraries etc.
Basically if you want to work with other DAWs you'e stuck with beat clock and Live Link in Bitwig, they started off with just a few controllers mapped, and tossed the users the Java to make their own. But barring that, it's doing things for long term stability in the sense that Bitwig developers are coding their own modular system instead of buying the world renowned Max/MSP and grafting it on to their DAW. The advantage there is a built in community of people who port their stand alone Max devices into Live, and you could build something in Max4Live and port it easily to a stand alone device, you're not stuck just using Live etc.
I think if I was a decent coder it would be a hard call, Max in Live is plenty powerful and it will take years for Bitwig's built in modular system to be as powerful, it's not even out yet. It will probably never get Jitter, Max's video DJ software. But it already allows more hacks of third party controllers.
As a non coder, I look at the differences and choose which is more important to me. At the moment it's Live, since I've used it forever, like having rewire, and mostly use Live as an ancillary to DAWs like Reaper Logic and DP. MPE support could eventually break me though.
Bitwig-
Does: MPE,
polyphonic aftertouch,
note expression,
sandboxed plug ins (the plug in crashes, not the DAW),
Bitwig clips can contain more than one MIDI or Audio file,
Soon to be built in object oriented environment for creating all kinds of things.
Live Studio-
Does:
Rewire, can run Push 2 in slave mode,
Arguably better third party controller support, although Möss does amazing third party work for Bitwig,
Max, can run pretty much anything at this point, is stable etc.
Max can do video FX even.
If you're a coder, Max is limitless almost at this point.
Massive third party support in terms of devices made in Max, Racks, sample libraries etc.
Basically if you want to work with other DAWs you'e stuck with beat clock and Live Link in Bitwig, they started off with just a few controllers mapped, and tossed the users the Java to make their own. But barring that, it's doing things for long term stability in the sense that Bitwig developers are coding their own modular system instead of buying the world renowned Max/MSP and grafting it on to their DAW. The advantage there is a built in community of people who port their stand alone Max devices into Live, and you could build something in Max4Live and port it easily to a stand alone device, you're not stuck just using Live etc.
I think if I was a decent coder it would be a hard call, Max in Live is plenty powerful and it will take years for Bitwig's built in modular system to be as powerful, it's not even out yet. It will probably never get Jitter, Max's video DJ software. But it already allows more hacks of third party controllers.
As a non coder, I look at the differences and choose which is more important to me. At the moment it's Live, since I've used it forever, like having rewire, and mostly use Live as an ancillary to DAWs like Reaper Logic and DP. MPE support could eventually break me though.
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- KVRist
- 332 posts since 1 Jun, 2005 from Zwolle, Netherlands
A bit late to this thread but this is how I see things currently:
I’m a trained keyboard player and a nerd that loves tech and buttons. I have used both extensively. Live since V4, and was one of the first buyers of Bitwig V1 ('Premiere Badge'). Have also used Cubase for over a decade, Reason, Logic when i switched to Mac and have played with Fruity loops, Tracktion, Reason, Project 5, even Pro 24. But to me (and mainly producing EDM) Ableton/Bitwig are the best. Not saying these programs don’t work for conventional music. I’ve created pop and r&b just using Ableton. They do form a pair of a kind in the landscape of DAW’s and I tend to switch between them now and then depending how I feel, to get a fresh view on music making and to try out new functions. This is my overview that might help people decide:
Bitwig:
- USP’s: hybrid, flexibility, modular (in software and with CV hardware), ‘open’
- The modulations and unified signal flow are ace and they have made the inherent complexity as easy as possible.
- Popup browser when adding devices
- Custom key commands
- The hybrid tracks and the way you can combine midi and audio effects in one track. No complex track routings needed. Ableton often needs a lot more channels to do the same thing.
- Turn off tracks and hide them.
- View clips and arrangement in the same view. (so could project 5 back in 2005 by the way... people tend to forget)
- Plugin overview and drag/drop in the mixer is great. Just like logic.
- Modular CV integration is better implemented (edit: Live 10 just introduced CV tools)
- VST multi channel output integration is really smooth
- Layered view of audio and midi
- Working in the arrangement is arguably better than Ableton, though Ableton is catching up.
- Audio editing in clips. Simply brilliant and the one feature I miss most in Ableton.
- Flexible audio routing
- Multi projects / drag drop tracks
- UI more flexible (mixer view, multi screen etc.)
- Bounce in place
- Crash protection
- Custom controller mappings easier and color coded.
- Speed of development
Ableton
- USP’S: quick musical idea development, live performance, ‘refined / focussed’
- Midi Editing in both Bitwig and Ableton are limited (Fruity Loops outshines both), but to me Ableton’s is more refined. Key commands to move, lengthen notes and adjust velocity are a simpler and makes working in the piano roll smoother for me (I spend a lot of time in the piano roll). Also the multi layer editing of midi is simpler but suits me better. I often get lost in bitwig’s somehow.
- Controller support for Ableton is extensive and effortless. The open API for Bitwig is great and so is the community but it’s often a distraction for me. Love Touchable.
- Time stretching. Bitwig and time stretch works good, but somehow Ableton’s time stretching is better and more effortless to me
- Swing. Great, extensive. This is really limited in Bitwig.
- Bundled content, instruments, fx, samples, are better than Bitwig’s , though Bitwig is catching up quickly..
- Push2. Kudos to Mossgraber for building the excellent script for Bitwig, but it's the same Android/iOS metaphor for me here (see below). It's flexible, updates often and adds features. I do get lost more often than in Ableton. Of course push2 integration with Ableton is excellent. There are users that think the opposite and say Mossgrabers script is more focussed so ymmv. But it's a fact that Push2 visually looks better when working with Ableton.
- Freeze tracks also with external instruments.
- Midi note chasing.. brilliant and essential to me.
- Video integration. I’ve only used it a few times, but it’s great it’s there.
- Auto naming save-as (OMG in bitwig I have to retype the project name every time I save the project)
- Narrow track width. You can scale tracks up in Bitwig but not down.. In Ableton I can view up to 100+ tracks without scrolling if needed. Especially handy when playing live.
- Auto truncate clips
- Interaction refinement/consistency. Adjust any parameter with arrow keys; delete is always reset parameter; view shortcuts are always alt+cmd. And when I click or click+drag something it just works. In Bitwig I sometimes need to aim more carefully, or parameters don’t move as smooth. Because shortcuts are not customizable in Ableton, they are more consistent. Details like these make working in Ableton more pleasant in some areas.
- Sound/clips/Kit preview. Fast and clips nearly always play in sync. Sound preview in bitwig is slower, clip preview often not in sync and preset sounds/kits have no preview.
For me it mainly comes down to focus vs flexible. I have great fun working with Bitwig and in many ways it is better than Ableton. But currently I tend to write music easier in Ableton. It offers less distraction and is refined in many subtle areas. A bit like iOS vs Android. Ableton, like Apple, carefully/stubbornly decides what’s best for you, but in return offers tight integration, focus and refinement. There are fewer ways to get from A to B (and often even take longer to get there) but that does mean it's more consistent and this limitation works for me. Bitwig has a wide focus with it’s modulation, open API for controllers, custom key commands and it’s hybrid (live/production/mixing) approach influenced by Ableton, logic, project 5, cubase etc. It’s easier to adjust Bitwig to taste, and I did (custom shortcuts, a library of clips, templates), but sometimes I still get lost in multi layered editing/sub layer/note fx/modulations and all. And I still often click the wrong tool shortcuts after years of Bitwig. Little interface annoyances in Bitwig make me realise how refined Ableton is in many areas.
In Bitwig bug fixing and refinements sometimes get stalled while they implement big new features like sampler and the grid. I’m not saying they don’t fix bugs or refine, they do, and their update rate is impressive (and Ableton has their share of instability and late bug fixing) but generally speaking Bitwig’s focus is more on new features and development and Ableton more on refining what’s already there (and honestly have had a lot longer to do so). And this is more than the difference between a flexible new small company and established company with a big user base. It’s their company culture and philosophy (and i guess one of the reasons the former Ableton programmers left and started Bitwig in the first place): Controlled, minimalistic, focussed approach of Ableton vs the open modular, 'community driven' style of Bitwig. I guess I would prefer to work at Bitwig
.
You can be community-driven-flexible with Ableton when it comes to Max for live. There's a big collection of mostly free, useful devices. But when it comes to building your own, Max is more complex (yet infinitely more flexible) and the devices feel less integrated. In this area Bitwig is more refined and focussed than Ableton. And when we look at building your own instruments or fx, Bitwig’s The Grid will be more consistent, easier and inviting than Max, but less flexible and comprehensive. Diving into max feels like leaving Ableton, entering a deeper layer. This prevents me from going there, a good thing for me personally. If you want to create your own devices in a friendly Modular ‘click and drag’ way, Bitwig is the way to go. If you’re into a bit of (though visually) programming, Max offers infinite possibilities (but also for things to not work as intended).
So if you are easily distracted (aren’t we all? I know I do, I have adhd), Ableton might help you focus. If you are organised (I envy you), Bitwig is potentially quicker especially when you take the time to adjust it to your custom needs. Bitwig is arguable more fun, but so is Push2+live10.1.
Currently I work in Ableton because of these features:
- Better piano roll (and a long lasting bug in bitwig where the notes sound incorrect in the folded view)
- Midi note chasing (no need to re-hear those 2 bars over and over again just to retrigger sustained notes)
- Sound/Clip/Kit preview
- Adjust selected parameters with arrow keys
- Effortless controller support, Push2
- Simplistic focus, refined Interaction
So it’s not about the ‘big’ features to me. It’s the little things that make the difference. Bitwig has a lot over Ableton, audio editing in clips being the biggest imo and I much prefer how quick I can add devices. But forenamed features are time savers for me (vs annoyance in Bitwig) meaning Ableton is my Current DAW of choice. But ask me again a year from now..
If you are starting out, I would advise to stick with one program for at least a full year without looking back (or sideways/forward for that matter). Right now I would start with Ableton, since the initial rabbit hole is less deep (just don't touch that edit button in max devices) and documentation, forum support and tutorials are currently better. Bitwig is in no way lacking in these areas but since Ableton has been around for longer, googling for answers turns up better results. Also googling for Bitwig answers often comes up with Bitwig's own (abandoned) forum results. Ableton offers less distraction from exciting new developments. But you can’t go wrong with starting out with Bitwig and many arguments I mentioned might work reversely for you. Stick with either for at least a year and you won’t regret it.
All in all I think Bitwig is the best thing that has happend to Ableton (users). Like all monopolists Ableton was in need for some good competition and I feel Bitwig has benefited their development. The market is big enough for both companies to coexist with their own unique focus and Bitwig deserves to grow to a similar size as Ableton.
I’m a trained keyboard player and a nerd that loves tech and buttons. I have used both extensively. Live since V4, and was one of the first buyers of Bitwig V1 ('Premiere Badge'). Have also used Cubase for over a decade, Reason, Logic when i switched to Mac and have played with Fruity loops, Tracktion, Reason, Project 5, even Pro 24. But to me (and mainly producing EDM) Ableton/Bitwig are the best. Not saying these programs don’t work for conventional music. I’ve created pop and r&b just using Ableton. They do form a pair of a kind in the landscape of DAW’s and I tend to switch between them now and then depending how I feel, to get a fresh view on music making and to try out new functions. This is my overview that might help people decide:
Bitwig:
- USP’s: hybrid, flexibility, modular (in software and with CV hardware), ‘open’
- The modulations and unified signal flow are ace and they have made the inherent complexity as easy as possible.
- Popup browser when adding devices
- Custom key commands
- The hybrid tracks and the way you can combine midi and audio effects in one track. No complex track routings needed. Ableton often needs a lot more channels to do the same thing.
- Turn off tracks and hide them.
- View clips and arrangement in the same view. (so could project 5 back in 2005 by the way... people tend to forget)
- Plugin overview and drag/drop in the mixer is great. Just like logic.
- Modular CV integration is better implemented (edit: Live 10 just introduced CV tools)
- VST multi channel output integration is really smooth
- Layered view of audio and midi
- Working in the arrangement is arguably better than Ableton, though Ableton is catching up.
- Audio editing in clips. Simply brilliant and the one feature I miss most in Ableton.
- Flexible audio routing
- Multi projects / drag drop tracks
- UI more flexible (mixer view, multi screen etc.)
- Bounce in place
- Crash protection
- Custom controller mappings easier and color coded.
- Speed of development
Ableton
- USP’S: quick musical idea development, live performance, ‘refined / focussed’
- Midi Editing in both Bitwig and Ableton are limited (Fruity Loops outshines both), but to me Ableton’s is more refined. Key commands to move, lengthen notes and adjust velocity are a simpler and makes working in the piano roll smoother for me (I spend a lot of time in the piano roll). Also the multi layer editing of midi is simpler but suits me better. I often get lost in bitwig’s somehow.
- Controller support for Ableton is extensive and effortless. The open API for Bitwig is great and so is the community but it’s often a distraction for me. Love Touchable.
- Time stretching. Bitwig and time stretch works good, but somehow Ableton’s time stretching is better and more effortless to me
- Swing. Great, extensive. This is really limited in Bitwig.
- Bundled content, instruments, fx, samples, are better than Bitwig’s , though Bitwig is catching up quickly..
- Push2. Kudos to Mossgraber for building the excellent script for Bitwig, but it's the same Android/iOS metaphor for me here (see below). It's flexible, updates often and adds features. I do get lost more often than in Ableton. Of course push2 integration with Ableton is excellent. There are users that think the opposite and say Mossgrabers script is more focussed so ymmv. But it's a fact that Push2 visually looks better when working with Ableton.
- Freeze tracks also with external instruments.
- Midi note chasing.. brilliant and essential to me.
- Video integration. I’ve only used it a few times, but it’s great it’s there.
- Auto naming save-as (OMG in bitwig I have to retype the project name every time I save the project)
- Narrow track width. You can scale tracks up in Bitwig but not down.. In Ableton I can view up to 100+ tracks without scrolling if needed. Especially handy when playing live.
- Auto truncate clips
- Interaction refinement/consistency. Adjust any parameter with arrow keys; delete is always reset parameter; view shortcuts are always alt+cmd. And when I click or click+drag something it just works. In Bitwig I sometimes need to aim more carefully, or parameters don’t move as smooth. Because shortcuts are not customizable in Ableton, they are more consistent. Details like these make working in Ableton more pleasant in some areas.
- Sound/clips/Kit preview. Fast and clips nearly always play in sync. Sound preview in bitwig is slower, clip preview often not in sync and preset sounds/kits have no preview.
For me it mainly comes down to focus vs flexible. I have great fun working with Bitwig and in many ways it is better than Ableton. But currently I tend to write music easier in Ableton. It offers less distraction and is refined in many subtle areas. A bit like iOS vs Android. Ableton, like Apple, carefully/stubbornly decides what’s best for you, but in return offers tight integration, focus and refinement. There are fewer ways to get from A to B (and often even take longer to get there) but that does mean it's more consistent and this limitation works for me. Bitwig has a wide focus with it’s modulation, open API for controllers, custom key commands and it’s hybrid (live/production/mixing) approach influenced by Ableton, logic, project 5, cubase etc. It’s easier to adjust Bitwig to taste, and I did (custom shortcuts, a library of clips, templates), but sometimes I still get lost in multi layered editing/sub layer/note fx/modulations and all. And I still often click the wrong tool shortcuts after years of Bitwig. Little interface annoyances in Bitwig make me realise how refined Ableton is in many areas.
In Bitwig bug fixing and refinements sometimes get stalled while they implement big new features like sampler and the grid. I’m not saying they don’t fix bugs or refine, they do, and their update rate is impressive (and Ableton has their share of instability and late bug fixing) but generally speaking Bitwig’s focus is more on new features and development and Ableton more on refining what’s already there (and honestly have had a lot longer to do so). And this is more than the difference between a flexible new small company and established company with a big user base. It’s their company culture and philosophy (and i guess one of the reasons the former Ableton programmers left and started Bitwig in the first place): Controlled, minimalistic, focussed approach of Ableton vs the open modular, 'community driven' style of Bitwig. I guess I would prefer to work at Bitwig
.You can be community-driven-flexible with Ableton when it comes to Max for live. There's a big collection of mostly free, useful devices. But when it comes to building your own, Max is more complex (yet infinitely more flexible) and the devices feel less integrated. In this area Bitwig is more refined and focussed than Ableton. And when we look at building your own instruments or fx, Bitwig’s The Grid will be more consistent, easier and inviting than Max, but less flexible and comprehensive. Diving into max feels like leaving Ableton, entering a deeper layer. This prevents me from going there, a good thing for me personally. If you want to create your own devices in a friendly Modular ‘click and drag’ way, Bitwig is the way to go. If you’re into a bit of (though visually) programming, Max offers infinite possibilities (but also for things to not work as intended).
So if you are easily distracted (aren’t we all? I know I do, I have adhd), Ableton might help you focus. If you are organised (I envy you), Bitwig is potentially quicker especially when you take the time to adjust it to your custom needs. Bitwig is arguable more fun, but so is Push2+live10.1.
Currently I work in Ableton because of these features:
- Better piano roll (and a long lasting bug in bitwig where the notes sound incorrect in the folded view)
- Midi note chasing (no need to re-hear those 2 bars over and over again just to retrigger sustained notes)
- Sound/Clip/Kit preview
- Adjust selected parameters with arrow keys
- Effortless controller support, Push2
- Simplistic focus, refined Interaction
So it’s not about the ‘big’ features to me. It’s the little things that make the difference. Bitwig has a lot over Ableton, audio editing in clips being the biggest imo and I much prefer how quick I can add devices. But forenamed features are time savers for me (vs annoyance in Bitwig) meaning Ableton is my Current DAW of choice. But ask me again a year from now..
If you are starting out, I would advise to stick with one program for at least a full year without looking back (or sideways/forward for that matter). Right now I would start with Ableton, since the initial rabbit hole is less deep (just don't touch that edit button in max devices
) and documentation, forum support and tutorials are currently better. Bitwig is in no way lacking in these areas but since Ableton has been around for longer, googling for answers turns up better results. Also googling for Bitwig answers often comes up with Bitwig's own (abandoned) forum results. Ableton offers less distraction from exciting new developments. But you can’t go wrong with starting out with Bitwig and many arguments I mentioned might work reversely for you. Stick with either for at least a year and you won’t regret it.All in all I think Bitwig is the best thing that has happend to Ableton (users). Like all monopolists Ableton was in need for some good competition and I feel Bitwig has benefited their development. The market is big enough for both companies to coexist with their own unique focus and Bitwig deserves to grow to a similar size as Ableton.
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- KVRist
- 360 posts since 26 Oct, 2018
Never used a DAW besides bitwig, but holy **** this thing is super fun to use. Just posted in Bitwig section about bitwig delay vs others. Bitwigs Delay-4 is absolutely nuts and has me excited to learn it inside and out. Demo’d a few well reviewed delays like echoboy, repeater, fabfilter, etc, and Delay-4 smoked them in ease of use, and possibilities with routing, pre and post fx, etc. in 4 different lines of delay, modulated any of the trillion knobs to do some weird s**t. Thats pretty much how Bitwig works.
But yet, Ill say go with Ableton because I want to keep bitwig a secret and all to myself
Oh yeah, I havent even tried the Beta3 yet. Going to wait for final release. Still have to learn a lot on this version before the rabbit hole goes even deeper.
But yet, Ill say go with Ableton because I want to keep bitwig a secret and all to myself
Oh yeah, I havent even tried the Beta3 yet. Going to wait for final release. Still have to learn a lot on this version before the rabbit hole goes even deeper.
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- KVRist
- 66 posts since 13 Jan, 2019
I can only echo what others already said: Both are fantastic DAWS, so you should probably really use the demos for as long as possible, as it's usually the small(est) details that could decide which way you ultimately want to go. I have been struggling with the same questions for a while now, as both are very similar in workflow, but I decided on Live. The reasons for that probably sound absolutely ridiculous to most, like the fact that Bitwig is missing Live's Alt + Space "play from cursor" shortcut, the missing MIDI chase and stuff like that. I even started a small list with the pro's of both programs myself, but again, the points on that list probably sound pretty dumb to others
Frequently changing DAW of choice...
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- KVRian
- 955 posts since 18 Apr, 2006
I totally get that - I have a dumb list myself.dreamstate42 wrote: ↑Sat May 18, 2019 10:38 pm I even started a small list with the pro's of both programs myself, but again, the points on that list probably sound pretty dumb to others
I used Logic, then went to Ableton (v8). It was like an epiphany at the time. Simple things were amazing. Stuff like the button that hides unused keys in the piano roll (Logic later did that). The problem was I never got on with the arranger view. Part of it was that it was a pain moving stuff from session view over and (this will sound dumb) I had a hard time with the instrument info on the right side instead of left. So I would do cool stuff in session view, but not finish a lot of tracks. In the end, I'm an arranger view type of guy.
So I went back to Logic, but picked up a maschine to go with it. It worked, but I longed for some of the Live workflow. Logic improved (midi effects, etc) but still felt overly complicated. I then picked up Bitwig and I love it. I still have logic and use it for some things, but love bitwig. It has all the features to make it what I wanted Ableton to be. Ableton has some features (like freezing tracks) I miss, but I am happy with Bitwig.
Though I do always check ableton updates to see what they improved (especially in regards to arrangement view). I would love to hear how they have improved arrangement view.
One thing I will say, Ableton is very popular so if you buy 3rd party packs or want youtube classes or advanced courses, Ableton will have more resources.
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- KVRAF
- 14985 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area
It broke me. I used Live since v4, but when they announced v10 with still no support for aftertouch, that was it. Bye-bye. I was already using a Rise 49 a lot, and the hoops you need to jump through to get it to run in Ableton are ridiculous. Now I’m in Bitwig, happily using a Rise and I added an old (but great) GEM S2 with no issues. The only thing I really miss is Live’s looper. I love how I could start a loop and have it determine the tempo of the project. Bitwig 3 doesn’t seem to have anything similar in the works.
Anyway, if I was happy with a basic controller, or was the kind of guy who just used a mouse to input notes and data, I’d have stayed with Live. I’m not, though.
Zerocrossing Media
4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
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machinesworking machinesworking https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=8505
- KVRAF
- 6196 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle
It's definitely a pro/con situation. I use DP10 and Reaper a lot as well as Live, so rewire does serve some purpose here. Live now rewires and still maintains control over Push, which is pretty cool for Sesion View. Ableton made one concession I wanted there, they're playing nicer with others, and it's the one big PITA IMO of Bitwig, at first even standard controllers were not supported, but because some programmer types like Möss were willing to put in the work there is now decent controller support. Live still is slightly ahead there IMO though. They could have offered full MIDI support, SysEx, NRPN, and the could have had Rewire, but they chose not to.zerocrossing wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2019 1:10 pmIt broke me. I used Live since v4, but when they announced v10 with still no support for aftertouch, that was it. Bye-bye. I was already using a Rise 49 a lot, and the hoops you need to jump through to get it to run in Ableton are ridiculous. Now I’m in Bitwig, happily using a Rise and I added an old (but great) GEM S2 with no issues. The only thing I really miss is Live’s looper. I love how I could start a loop and have it determine the tempo of the project. Bitwig 3 doesn’t seem to have anything similar in the works.
Anyway, if I was happy with a basic controller, or was the kind of guy who just used a mouse to input notes and data, I’d have stayed with Live. I’m not, though.
I've got Reaper for full MPE support, and in Ableton honestly the script does a good job for Live and MPE. DP10 also has useful tools that make setting up a MPE soft synth about 30 seconds of time, then saving as an instrument clip etc.
None of that takes away from some of Bitwig's strong points, but suffice to say I was disappointed in Bitwig out the door for again being more of a DAW for folks who use code a bit. (the scripting language for MIDI controllers etc.) it sometimes feels like both programs are selling you partially built cars...
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- KVRist
- 187 posts since 6 Jun, 2019
I'm not a fan of either, so this may or may not be helpful, but it's on topic of "help me decide."
If you want another opinion, I think the bang-for-the-buck question is a red herring, because you should buy the best that you can afford. If that sounds awfully unspecific that's because it's a subjective judgement. But the subject being you, threads like this can only help you to certain small extent, and have the potential to do the equal amount of harm in misguiding you and making you believe that function X is the winner feature valued much higher than feature Y, even though you never heard of, thought of, nor wished for either. That is, until somebody who obviously knows their craft goes to great lengths to "sell" (with the best, most honest intent) the features to you, and because they know what they're doing, you project this aura of authority onto them, and in the process you may find that instead of getting into touch with how you the subject feel about the tools in question, you're getting a "feel" for the ideas, customs, attitudes, routines and mindsets held and practiced by a vast number of other subjects, trying to find the closest approximation of your current or future self (with more knowledge than yourself). For all practical purposes, that imaginary entity may not exist.
You may also end up wasting countless hours on doing off-task research into production technology and techniques - time that you had every opportunity to invest in getting your hands dirty with the tools, accumulating knowledge that is much more valuable because you the subject are through direct involvement included in it, i.e. you are the lens that may make another person's treasure look like a pile of excrement, or vice versa.
I'm sorry if I sound patronizing, presuming you don't know what you want. Just imagine I'm talking to the next person, who would start a thread exactly like this, precisely because they don't. They do exist in plenty. Which brings me to...
My motivation? I was that next guy. I've made so stupid purchases and wasted so much time listening to pro's, i.e. people who are way above my level, and not just above but also behind, sideways and upside-down all the way through the darkest Africa to the Moon and beyond. I've taken advice and recommendations from people who I never should have taken advice from, regardless of their indisputably solid skills and vast knowledge. Because I don't do what they do, I don't work like they do, I don't care about many things they care about, I don't mind some other things that they do, and while I keep learning from them, in retrospect I should have stuck with what felt best instead of chasing the dragon.
Bitwig, Renoise and Reaper were my big disappointments. All of them were sold to me by the hype, and although I demo'ed them to evaluate whether the purchase would be smart, while it didn't convincingly prove the positive, it was enough that it didn't prove the negative, which allowed me to continue believing that there was something that I just need to learn and then it will be awesome.
Bitwig and Live both have this highly enthusiastic userbase who praise the workflow of these DAW's. They're so in love with the tools and working with them, that I thought they must have a good reason, and maybe I should jump on the wagon. Of course I believe them, even now, but what I discovered through much pain was that the fantastic workflow they sold to me never worked for me. I wasted months trying to "grok" the holy grail which I finally correctly identified as a distraction and a straightjacket destroying my productivity and ultimately creativity (regardless of how fun "jamming" was in Bitwig). I expect it to be clear at this point that I acknowledge your mileage may vary - this was my months' worth of mileage off the cliff and down the drain. What did I do wrong? Of course, I didn't know about all the techniques people used in producing music, and I was very curious about anything that could increase my productivity, so the research itself became a time sink. But another important point is that I took people too seriously, and for some reason began to doubt my own ways of working just because other people felt so strongly about their different ways of working.
Finally, whatever nice features and workflow people tout for, don't just take their word for it, but instead jump in immediately and try them with your own hands. If a feature doesn't sound interesting, you don't need to become interested, just pass by. If something works, you will know because you'll find yourself starting and finishing tracks. The best tool is one that allows you to spend least amount of time thinking about itself.
/$0.02 :-D
If you want another opinion, I think the bang-for-the-buck question is a red herring, because you should buy the best that you can afford. If that sounds awfully unspecific that's because it's a subjective judgement. But the subject being you, threads like this can only help you to certain small extent, and have the potential to do the equal amount of harm in misguiding you and making you believe that function X is the winner feature valued much higher than feature Y, even though you never heard of, thought of, nor wished for either. That is, until somebody who obviously knows their craft goes to great lengths to "sell" (with the best, most honest intent) the features to you, and because they know what they're doing, you project this aura of authority onto them, and in the process you may find that instead of getting into touch with how you the subject feel about the tools in question, you're getting a "feel" for the ideas, customs, attitudes, routines and mindsets held and practiced by a vast number of other subjects, trying to find the closest approximation of your current or future self (with more knowledge than yourself). For all practical purposes, that imaginary entity may not exist.
You may also end up wasting countless hours on doing off-task research into production technology and techniques - time that you had every opportunity to invest in getting your hands dirty with the tools, accumulating knowledge that is much more valuable because you the subject are through direct involvement included in it, i.e. you are the lens that may make another person's treasure look like a pile of excrement, or vice versa.
I'm sorry if I sound patronizing, presuming you don't know what you want. Just imagine I'm talking to the next person, who would start a thread exactly like this, precisely because they don't. They do exist in plenty. Which brings me to...
My motivation? I was that next guy. I've made so stupid purchases and wasted so much time listening to pro's, i.e. people who are way above my level, and not just above but also behind, sideways and upside-down all the way through the darkest Africa to the Moon and beyond. I've taken advice and recommendations from people who I never should have taken advice from, regardless of their indisputably solid skills and vast knowledge. Because I don't do what they do, I don't work like they do, I don't care about many things they care about, I don't mind some other things that they do, and while I keep learning from them, in retrospect I should have stuck with what felt best instead of chasing the dragon.
Bitwig, Renoise and Reaper were my big disappointments. All of them were sold to me by the hype, and although I demo'ed them to evaluate whether the purchase would be smart, while it didn't convincingly prove the positive, it was enough that it didn't prove the negative, which allowed me to continue believing that there was something that I just need to learn and then it will be awesome.
Bitwig and Live both have this highly enthusiastic userbase who praise the workflow of these DAW's. They're so in love with the tools and working with them, that I thought they must have a good reason, and maybe I should jump on the wagon. Of course I believe them, even now, but what I discovered through much pain was that the fantastic workflow they sold to me never worked for me. I wasted months trying to "grok" the holy grail which I finally correctly identified as a distraction and a straightjacket destroying my productivity and ultimately creativity (regardless of how fun "jamming" was in Bitwig). I expect it to be clear at this point that I acknowledge your mileage may vary - this was my months' worth of mileage off the cliff and down the drain. What did I do wrong? Of course, I didn't know about all the techniques people used in producing music, and I was very curious about anything that could increase my productivity, so the research itself became a time sink. But another important point is that I took people too seriously, and for some reason began to doubt my own ways of working just because other people felt so strongly about their different ways of working.
Finally, whatever nice features and workflow people tout for, don't just take their word for it, but instead jump in immediately and try them with your own hands. If a feature doesn't sound interesting, you don't need to become interested, just pass by. If something works, you will know because you'll find yourself starting and finishing tracks. The best tool is one that allows you to spend least amount of time thinking about itself.
/$0.02 :-D
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- KVRian
- 1403 posts since 30 Mar, 2014
I’ve owned both, but ended up staying with Ableton because I prefer their built in devices:
- Operator is basically my default synth for everything, even though it usually ends up getting swapped for something from U-he. It’s just a great, no-frills FM synth. Bitwig has two contenders, but I just don’t like them very much.
- Sampler is the best... sampler... on the market, IMO. It’s missing features from Kontakt, but what it does have is better. Even with Bitwig’s updates to their sampler, I still don’t like it.
- Glue compressor. Nothing in Bitwig is nearly as good.
- Echo. The new delay in Ableton is great. Wish they made a better reverb.
- Wavetable. I’m enjoying this more and more, especially now that we can import our own samples.
Now all that being said, Bitwig’s modulator system is hands down the best thing about it. So powerful. And I do appreciate how they stripped out most of the LFOs and things out of the instruments, so you’re free to use whatever modulator you want.
If Bitwig had Ableton’s devices, it would be a no brainer for me. That, and M4L, but I’m curious where this Grids thing is going.
- Operator is basically my default synth for everything, even though it usually ends up getting swapped for something from U-he. It’s just a great, no-frills FM synth. Bitwig has two contenders, but I just don’t like them very much.
- Sampler is the best... sampler... on the market, IMO. It’s missing features from Kontakt, but what it does have is better. Even with Bitwig’s updates to their sampler, I still don’t like it.
- Glue compressor. Nothing in Bitwig is nearly as good.
- Echo. The new delay in Ableton is great. Wish they made a better reverb.
- Wavetable. I’m enjoying this more and more, especially now that we can import our own samples.
Now all that being said, Bitwig’s modulator system is hands down the best thing about it. So powerful. And I do appreciate how they stripped out most of the LFOs and things out of the instruments, so you’re free to use whatever modulator you want.
If Bitwig had Ableton’s devices, it would be a no brainer for me. That, and M4L, but I’m curious where this Grids thing is going.
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- KVRAF
- 8826 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space
I just made a collection of all DX7 algorithms in the Grid. I bet Operator cannot compete with it. Recreating some classic DX7 sounds was a snap and worked astonishingly well. (In case someone complains that it does not sound exact, get Dexed and go on...)
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- KVRAF
- 2989 posts since 5 Nov, 2014
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- KVRAF
- 8826 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space
The OP left this thread 4 months ago, I wonder about the decision made.
