Help me decide between Ableton & Bitwig please...

[Vehrka]

Good afternoon everybody,

I've recently decided to move up in the DAW world and move from FL Studio to Ableton or Bitwig. I bought FL Studio about 4 years ago and have been messing around as a hobby but I've always felt it a little bit lacking compared to the other big name DAWs. Recently I torrented Ableton & Bitwig (I felt ashamed afterwards and just downloaded the official demos instead) and really like the workflow of both of them, they're both really similar obviously.

I'm still messing around with them but there's a few questions I wanted ask all of you to help me decide which one is better for me. Mostly, I plan on doing sound design and electronic ambient/underscore music mostly just so you guys have an idea of what I'll be doing with the program.

So...first question is which of the two has better MIDI editing? This is probably the most important thing for me as I work completely within my computer for now. So I have to draw in the notes and all my automation with my mouse instead of using a controller for those things. Out of the two, which one has better functionality and ease of use (IN YOUR OPINION)?

The second question is, which of the of two has is more worth the money, again in your opinion? I will be buying them with an educational discount so they're both relatively affordable for me but if I had to pick one, which one is more "worth it" in terms of features available and updates (I know Bitwig requires an additional update license)? For example I know Max for Live is a big selling point for Ableton but I see that Bitwig has their modular grid coming out in the next update which looks really cool. So comparing each DAW's included plugins and features, which has more bang for the buck?

Just as an aside, I looked very closely at Cubase because a lot of my favorite composers use Cubase and it has very good MIDI editing features but in the end I feel like I prefer the workflow of Ableton & Bitwig and I don't need a dongle to try their demos. BUT would any of you choose Cubase over these two? Or is Cubase a bit "too much" for a beginner?

Thanks for all the help and sorry for making you all read so much

[Deep Purple]

You’ll get a lot of people come down on one side or the other, and it might be hard to get an objective opinion.

I would say keep working with the demos and see which one falls out as the winner for you

[SoundPorn]

Ooow this can get interesting. For starters one can easily argue that FL Studio is better then both and the best value easily out of all of them as it has free for life updates but It sounds like you probably torrented that too which is why you want to pay for another. And if we're talking about for strictly sound design many designers use Reaper because of it folders/ freezing and tagging system is on another planet then others DAWs.

Between Bitwig and Ableton if you don't have a midi controller then Bitwig is probably a better choice, but if you want a controller Ableton has some like the Push, Akai APC and Novation that intergrate so beautifully into their system.

[Vehrka]

Ooow this can get interesting. For starters one can easily argue that FL Studio is better then both and the best value easily out of all of them as it has free for life updates but It sounds like you probably torrented that too which is why you want to pay for another. And if we're talking about for strictly sound design many designers use Reaper because of it folders/ freezing and tagging system is on another planet then others DAWs.

Between Bitwig and Ableton if you don't have a midi controller then Bitwig is probably a better choice, but if you want a controller Ableton has some like the Push, Akai APC and Novation that intergrate so beautifully into their system.

Well, I've always liked FL Studio but I can't say I've ever LOVED it. Like I said, I've always felt like it was lacking. I know it like the back of my hand but I guess I've never realy felt fulfilled using it. I appreciate the free updates especially since for now it's just a hobby and it's cheaper than buying a new license every time. BUT I felt, especially after using the demos, that Ableton & Bitwig had a lot more things to play around with which makes me more excited than FL Studio makes me. One thing I have always loved about FL Studio is the piano roll. It's the only one I've ever used but when I watch videos of Cubase for example, it just looks so much more user friendly. That's why I'm so interested in what people's opinions are on Ableton or Bitwig's MIDI features, particularly the piano roll.

I did in fact buy FL Studio though (well I didn't buy it). It was a birthday gift from my parents and since then I've bought Zebra2, Serum through Splice's monthly plan, Reaktor, and other plug-ins here and there when I have enough money. Only reason I torrented Ableton & Bitwig is because I wanted to be able to save and then I found out, at least with Ableton, that you can save so I felt bad and went and downloaded the demo instead.

[Scotty]

Bitwig has the benefit of new code with a high degree of modulation support (Bitwig's implemention of assigning modulation sources and destinations is innovative and very well though out) and soon (as of V3) virtual modular integration. It is plagued with slow development due to a small albeit dedicated development team and the needless / distracting support of linux (imho) which is tinkerers paradise but not much else (again imho). The controller API seems forever broken - if external control is important to you than Live is your best bet. If linux is important to you then you have one choice. Also Bitwig has excellent hdmi and touch support. If you have a modular setup then Bitwig is also very strong with industry leading hardware modular support. Bitwig developers charge big boy prices for their product and updates regardless of their small stature. You'll hear plenty from people who feel this is fair and others who aren't as satisfied.

Live is more evolved / mature with more complete specs (included strong dedicated 3rd party controller support) but is suffers from that "bolted-on" feel and development on it is also slowing. Try the demos see what you prefer. I am a Bitwig user... I am growing with Bitwig and I decided it fit my workflow better than Live and I can use Cubase for more traditionial DAW work where Bitwig's feature set isn't quite there. Some people love Bitwig and other Live and you'll hear plenty from the fans of either. You'll do things with either that you can't easily do with FL and you'll be wondering why either haven't implemented some of the midi editing features of FL that you have come to see and use as second nature.

Good luck with your decision. It is a great time to be making music. Sometimes using Bitwig just makes me smile and that keeps me coming back to it.

[Vehrka]

Bitwig has the benefit of new code with a high degree of modulation support (Bitwig's implemention of assigning modulation sources and destinations is innovative and very well though out) and soon (as of V3) virtual modular integration. It is plagued with slow development due to a small albeit dedicated development team and the needless / distracting support of linux (imho) which is tinkerers paradise but not much else (again imho). The controller API seems forever broken - if external control is important to you than Live is your best bet. If linux is important to you then you have one choice. Also Bitwig has excellent hdmi and touch support. If you have a modular setup then Bitwig is also very strong with industry leading hardware modular support. Bitwig developers charge big boy prices for their product and updates regardless of their small stature. You'll hear plenty from people who feel this is fair and others who aren't as satisfied.

Live is more evolved / mature with more complete specs (included strong dedicated 3rd party controller support) but is suffers from that "bolted-on" feel and development on it is also slowing. Try the demos see what you prefer. I am a Bitwig user... I am growing with Bitwig and I decided it fit my workflow better than Live and I can use Cubase for more traditionial DAW work where Bitwig's feature set isn't quite there. Some people love Bitwig and other Live and you'll hear plenty from the fans of either. You'll do things with either that you can't easily do with FL and you'll be wondering why either haven't implemented some of the midi editing features of FL that you have come to see and use as second nature.

Good luck with your decision. It is a great time to be making music. Sometimes using Bitwig just makes me smile and that keeps me coming back to it.

Your reply actually really interests me and thank you for the detailed response! Honestly like I said above, I love FL's piano roll but it's everything else about FL that makes me want to switch. I have tried the demos but I've mostly been messing around with each DAW's effects and instruments for now I have 27 more days though so I still have time to really dig deep. But as someone who has used both DAWs, which one has the better piano roll/MIDI editing? And speaking of MIDI editing, I know Cubase has excellent features like Expression Maps. Would it be worth to spend $30 so I can try their demo as well?

[pekbro]

I have both, I like both as well. Bitwig has some great ideas definitely, that said if I had
to choose, I would probably go with Live personally. While live doesn't really have too
far to go to eclipse Bitwig, the same cant be said on the Bitwig side as they simply
don't have the money and resources (and likely never will) to do the same.

I suspect Bitwig's efforts will only improve Live in the end and I'm sure Ableton feels the same.
There are many reasons to side with Bitwig though, too many to list here. I think the cross
platform thing, is really the only one with a solid enough foundation to bank on though.

The rest boils down to personal preference. Supporting both was my answer, although
I can't see that continuing forever.

[Scotty]

I have only dabbled with FL but the Cubase forums have lots of FL users who have migrated wondering why Cubase is so intense requiring inefficient mouse clicks and drop down menus for basic tasks. Would I demo it for the cost of a dongle ?... Well, if you are really looking to launch clips with super fast workflow, Cubase won't satisfy you. It doesn't have a clip launcher which is why I explored both Live and Bitwig. I thought that a different approach might open up some new doors to my compositional style and get me out of some ruts due to the highly linear nature of Cubase's arranger. Bitwig has helped here for sure.

For me, Cubase excels at mixing and integration with my hardware environment. I have a lot of outboard gear and I do record bands with a lot of acoustic based instruments. For my electronic stuff, I take material from Bitwig, Maschine and other sources into Cubase to finish up tracks.

So I guess I am saying that "it depends".

Bitwig has the benefit of new code with a high degree of modulation support (Bitwig's implemention of assigning modulation sources and destinations is innovative and very well though out) and soon (as of V3) virtual modular integration. It is plagued with slow development due to a small albeit dedicated development team and the needless / distracting support of linux (imho) which is tinkerers paradise but not much else (again imho). The controller API seems forever broken - if external control is important to you than Live is your best bet. If linux is important to you then you have one choice. Also Bitwig has excellent hdmi and touch support. If you have a modular setup then Bitwig is also very strong with industry leading hardware modular support. Bitwig developers charge big boy prices for their product and updates regardless of their small stature. You'll hear plenty from people who feel this is fair and others who aren't as satisfied.

Live is more evolved / mature with more complete specs (included strong dedicated 3rd party controller support) but is suffers from that "bolted-on" feel and development on it is also slowing. Try the demos see what you prefer. I am a Bitwig user... I am growing with Bitwig and I decided it fit my workflow better than Live and I can use Cubase for more traditionial DAW work where Bitwig's feature set isn't quite there. Some people love Bitwig and other Live and you'll hear plenty from the fans of either. You'll do things with either that you can't easily do with FL and you'll be wondering why either haven't implemented some of the midi editing features of FL that you have come to see and use as second nature.

Good luck with your decision. It is a great time to be making music. Sometimes using Bitwig just makes me smile and that keeps me coming back to it.

Your reply actually really interests me and thank you for the detailed response! Honestly like I said above, I love FL's piano roll but it's everything else about FL that makes me want to switch. I have tried the demos but I've mostly been messing around with each DAW's effects and instruments for now I have 27 more days though so I still have time to really dig deep. But as someone who has used both DAWs, which one has the better piano roll/MIDI editing? And speaking of MIDI editing, I know Cubase has excellent features like Expression Maps. Would it be worth to spend $30 so I can try their demo as well?

[pinki]

Bitwig, no question. The modulation is unsurpassed.

[pekbro]

Bitwig, no question. The modulation is unsurpassed.

How long is that going to last, not long I suspect after seeing some things recently.
Look at Live 10.1 2 new devices, the channel eq and delay are straight out of Bitwig.
It's only a matter of time before they take everything thats good. Bitwig can't complain
either as 90% Bitwig is copied straight from Live

*Honestly, Bitwig is lucky that they and Ableton are not based in the US. Here Ableton
could get away with suing Bitwig into the ground.

*Seen it before, Pixar vs Exluna... Ex employees would have a tough time proving no
intellectual property was migrated into the competing company. Turn it into a civil
case directed personally at the principles and you're done. Which is exactly what
happened to Exluna... Fortunately, in Germany, things are not so ruthless as they
are in the US.

*In case anyone cares about wtf Exluna was. Exluna became an RnD branch of rendering
tech over at Nvidia. They were literally rescued from Pixar, bringing the case to conclusion.
Sadly, all of the involved products (and their freeware predecessor) were casualties and lost
forever.

[DavidCarlyon]

Good afternoon everybody,

I've recently decided to move up in the DAW world and move from FL Studio to Ableton or Bitwig. I bought FL Studio about 4 years ago and have been messing around as a hobby but I've always felt it a little bit lacking compared to the other big name DAWs. Recently I torrented Ableton & Bitwig (I felt ashamed afterwards and just downloaded the official demos instead) and really like the workflow of both of them, they're both really similar obviously.

I'm still messing around with them but there's a few questions I wanted ask all of you to help me decide which one is better for me. Mostly, I plan on doing sound design and electronic ambient/underscore music mostly just so you guys have an idea of what I'll be doing with the program.

So...first question is which of the two has better MIDI editing? This is probably the most important thing for me as I work completely within my computer for now. So I have to draw in the notes and all my automation with my mouse instead of using a controller for those things. Out of the two, which one has better functionality and ease of use (IN YOUR OPINION)?

The second question is, which of the of two has is more worth the money, again in your opinion? I will be buying them with an educational discount so they're both relatively affordable for me but if I had to pick one, which one is more "worth it" in terms of features available and updates (I know Bitwig requires an additional update license)? For example I know Max for Live is a big selling point for Ableton but I see that Bitwig has their modular grid coming out in the next update which looks really cool. So comparing each DAW's included plugins and features, which has more bang for the buck?

Just as an aside, I looked very closely at Cubase because a lot of my favorite composers use Cubase and it has very good MIDI editing features but in the end I feel like I prefer the workflow of Ableton & Bitwig and I don't need a dongle to try their demos. BUT would any of you choose Cubase over these two? Or is Cubase a bit "too much" for a beginner?

Thanks for all the help and sorry for making you all read so much

Ok so i have been back and forth between multiple DAWS for a while now and heres why -
used to be a pro tools guy (made rock n roll music) as i started making electronic stuff obviously i needed something more contemporary.
Got maschine cos it was inspiring to play, had to move on because it lacked a lot of other functionality.
Got into ableton, loved it to hell. but now and then i was frustrated with the automation (no curves, just rudimentary line drawing) and i thought the audio editing was really basic. I was still using a lot of audio then, so i switched to studio one, back to a linear editor. S1 is great if you are suing a lot of audio. its hard to beat in that sense.

Now, after trying out a ton more i got to bitwig - i loved having the Ableton workflow back, but Bitwig added much, much better audio editing (edit inside clip!!) also it had automation curves, the modular setup of plugins/devices is more sophisticated/easy to use at the same time, interface is bigger, you cxan modulate anything and there are tons and tons of modulators.
Another thing to consider is sidechaining, bitwig is incredible for this - you can tap audio and midi from anywhere, any track, any chain.

things i missed from ableton -
groove pool. The ability to mix and match grooves is awesome. BUT bitweig has a 'master' groove and you can sync lfos/modulators to that master groove, which is quite honestly amazing.
Push 2 - although Moss has written a great script for push 2 with bitwig, the integration with ableton is incredibly awesome, the ability to do step sequencer parameter locks is a huge time saver.
Also in Live loops in the browser play in time. However, overall Bitwigs browser is far, far more substantial.

I guess what i am trying to say is, it really, really depends on what you are actually doing, and how you are using it. When i started using ableton, i was using a lot more audio, so studio one ended up being better.
Now i am making tracks with only midi and vocals, leaving all my synthesizers running til mixdown, so bigtwig was way better, as the midi editing is way better - you can also edit multiple tracks at once.
Also for multi-timbral instruments like UVI falcon, you can send midi to as many different channels as you like all from one track - super useful for me as i use loads of multi-timbral instruments.

However, i recently got into analog synths - and this is a great example of 'depends what you are doing'

from what i can see, if you are using modular synths 0- bitwig is far better. It can send CV really easily and you can create your own 'hardware istrument' devices really neatly. However, for all in one type synths like Sub37, Dave Smith Prophet, Deep Mind 12, Ableton allows you to use NRPN messages, which allows you to control the entire synth like it was a plugin (all in 14 bit midi, which is higher resolution)
So i would say for analog polysynths, ableton is now better.

Also, Ableton automation can now do curves, and they have just announced 10.1 which has drawable LFO shapes like in studio one. this is going to be huge. Bitwig devices are really awesome. Some of ableton devices are up there with the best plugins.

Bottom line is, it is very hard to choose a winner. For you, being totally in the DAW and having Midi as a preference, i would swing towards Bitwig.

Sorry for the long winded answer, just thought i would pitch in with a few observations. I have spent so so so much time in the last couple of years, back and forth. The only good thing is now i know several DAWs really well. haha. I was on a quest to find the one greatest DAW to end all DAWs - doesn't exist.


Bitwig and Ableton are the best for electronic music, in my opinion. Love studio One for Audio, along with Reaper. If i was doing 'band' music still, i would be in one of those.

[Vehrka]

Good afternoon everybody,

I've recently decided to move up in the DAW world and move from FL Studio to Ableton or Bitwig. I bought FL Studio about 4 years ago and have been messing around as a hobby but I've always felt it a little bit lacking compared to the other big name DAWs. Recently I torrented Ableton & Bitwig (I felt ashamed afterwards and just downloaded the official demos instead) and really like the workflow of both of them, they're both really similar obviously.

I'm still messing around with them but there's a few questions I wanted ask all of you to help me decide which one is better for me. Mostly, I plan on doing sound design and electronic ambient/underscore music mostly just so you guys have an idea of what I'll be doing with the program.

So...first question is which of the two has better MIDI editing? This is probably the most important thing for me as I work completely within my computer for now. So I have to draw in the notes and all my automation with my mouse instead of using a controller for those things. Out of the two, which one has better functionality and ease of use (IN YOUR OPINION)?

The second question is, which of the of two has is more worth the money, again in your opinion? I will be buying them with an educational discount so they're both relatively affordable for me but if I had to pick one, which one is more "worth it" in terms of features available and updates (I know Bitwig requires an additional update license)? For example I know Max for Live is a big selling point for Ableton but I see that Bitwig has their modular grid coming out in the next update which looks really cool. So comparing each DAW's included plugins and features, which has more bang for the buck?

Just as an aside, I looked very closely at Cubase because a lot of my favorite composers use Cubase and it has very good MIDI editing features but in the end I feel like I prefer the workflow of Ableton & Bitwig and I don't need a dongle to try their demos. BUT would any of you choose Cubase over these two? Or is Cubase a bit "too much" for a beginner?

Thanks for all the help and sorry for making you all read so much

Ok so i have been back and forth between multiple DAWS for a while now and heres why -
used to be a pro tools guy (made rock n roll music) as i started making electronic stuff obviously i needed something more contemporary.
Got maschine cos it was inspiring to play, had to move on because it lacked a lot of other functionality.
Got into ableton, loved it to hell. but now and then i was frustrated with the automation (no curves, just rudimentary line drawing) and i thought the audio editing was really basic. I was still using a lot of audio then, so i switched to studio one, back to a linear editor. S1 is great if you are suing a lot of audio. its hard to beat in that sense.

Now, after trying out a ton more i got to bitwig - i loved having the Ableton workflow back, but Bitwig added much, much better audio editing (edit inside clip!!) also it had automation curves, the modular setup of plugins/devices is more sophisticated/easy to use at the same time, interface is bigger, you cxan modulate anything and there are tons and tons of modulators.
Another thing to consider is sidechaining, bitwig is incredible for this - you can tap audio and midi from anywhere, any track, any chain.

things i missed from ableton -
groove pool. The ability to mix and match grooves is awesome. BUT bitweig has a 'master' groove and you can sync lfos/modulators to that master groove, which is quite honestly amazing.
Push 2 - although Moss has written a great script for push 2 with bitwig, the integration with ableton is incredibly awesome, the ability to do step sequencer parameter locks is a huge time saver.
Also in Live loops in the browser play in time. However, overall Bitwigs browser is far, far more substantial.

I guess what i am trying to say is, it really, really depends on what you are actually doing, and how you are using it. When i started using ableton, i was using a lot more audio, so studio one ended up being better.
Now i am making tracks with only midi and vocals, leaving all my synthesizers running til mixdown, so bigtwig was way better, as the midi editing is way better - you can also edit multiple tracks at once.
Also for multi-timbral instruments like UVI falcon, you can send midi to as many different channels as you like all from one track - super useful for me as i use loads of multi-timbral instruments.

However, i recently got into analog synths - and this is a great example of 'depends what you are doing'

from what i can see, if you are using modular synths 0- bitwig is far better. It can send CV really easily and you can create your own 'hardware istrument' devices really neatly. However, for all in one type synths like Sub37, Dave Smith Prophet, Deep Mind 12, Ableton allows you to use NRPN messages, which allows you to control the entire synth like it was a plugin (all in 14 bit midi, which is higher resolution)
So i would say for analog polysynths, ableton is now better.

Also, Ableton automation can now do curves, and they have just announced 10.1 which has drawable LFO shapes like in studio one. this is going to be huge. Bitwig devices are really awesome. Some of ableton devices are up there with the best plugins.

Bottom line is, it is very hard to choose a winner. For you, being totally in the DAW and having Midi as a preference, i would swing towards Bitwig.

Sorry for the long winded answer, just thought i would pitch in with a few observations. I have spent so so so much time in the last couple of years, back and forth. The only good thing is now i know several DAWs really well. haha. I was on a quest to find the one greatest DAW to end all DAWs - doesn't exist.


Bitwig and Ableton are the best for electronic music, in my opinion. Love studio One for Audio, along with Reaper. If i was doing 'band' music still, i would be in one of those.

Hey man, I actually really appreciate the long winded answer. I was looking for a very detailed explanation of what separates the two DAWs because they're so similar on the surface I wanted to ask people that have a lot of experience with each so that I can know the little differences that might really affect my decision. I've been leaning towards Bitwig at the moment but after seeing Ableton's 10.1 update I really don't know which is the better option for me. It seems like Ableton 10.1 is really trying to improve their MIDI capabilities.

[christian f.]

I think Bitwig is very fresh and more exciting to use, but I feel like there are just some things missing to fully replace Ableton or Logic.

Sentiments were very similar when Ableton came around.
It probably took til version 7 or 8 before people really accepted it as a full on pro DAW.

Big difference is that many big artists supported and helped "Push" Ableton since early days, which is not the case with Bitwig.

[excuse me please]

Bitwig 3 will be released soon, so I would wait and then compare. Just saying.

[Tj Shredder]

I would have been the perfect Ableton Live user, as I am fluid in Max since its version 2. Its a matter of taste, but I never could attach to Live, whereas Bitwig took me by storm.
I attended several Live user group meetings and was pretty bored by the musical outcome (all sounded the same more or less). In theory there would be so much potential to do the crazy stuff, but its probably too easy to do the same...
The Bitwig user group meeting in Berlin I almost never miss. We actually jam together and have fun...