What do you think of the DAW market right now and for 2020?

[telecode]

Do you understand what your problem is? Your problem is that you can't separate yourself from your tools, your process or your choices.............................

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0O7htEkmzM

[Hink]

/end of you statements back and forth or this wont see page 13...and for some absolutely rediculous and embarrassing for each and every one of you participating in this non stop bullshit childishness I have to say it again.

ANY WORDS RESPONDING ON THOSE LINES COULD LAND ANY MEMBER SUSPENDED FOR A WEEK BECAUSE I'M TIRED OF

YOU IGNORING ME.

dont test me

[Matze Loeffler]

More AI technology.

[tooneba]

No one could argue that Ableton is riddim king of daw.

[Karma_tba]

My DAWs are not very current. My progression has been driven by my awareness (or lack of) of "computer music". In the late 90's I came across music software when buying a PC game. I got Acid 2 and upgraded till Acid 7. I went from loops to MIDI and found Orion suited my purpose better. Used Orion till Orion 8.6. I got FLStudio but the work flow was alien to me so I mostly stuck with Orion. Eventually I got Studio One 2. It's been my main DAW since, but I never felt the need to upgrade to the current version, because I'm still discovering features. When I completely master ver. 2 maybe I will upgrade. I still use Orion to quickly put ideas down like a sketch book. I play with FLStudio and it's my only current DAW because of the upgrades for life. Live, Bitwig, Logic, Reaper, etc. hold no interest for me.

[vurt]

My DAWs are not very current. My progression has been driven by my awareness (or lack of) of "computer music". In the late 90's I came across music software when buying a PC game. I got Acid 2 and upgraded till Acid 7. I went from loops to MIDI and found Orion suited my purpose better. Used Orion till Orion 8.6. I got FLStudio but the work flow was alien to me so I mostly stuck with Orion. Eventually I got Studio One 2. It's been my main DAW since, but I never felt the need to upgrade to the current version, because I'm still discovering features. When I completely master ver. 2 maybe I will upgrade. I still use Orion to quickly put ideas down like a sketch book. I play with FLStudio and it's my only current DAW because of the upgrades for life. Live, Bitwig, Logic, Reaper, etc. hold no interest for me.

that surprises me, at least as far as ableton, id imagine for hip hop type stuff it could be great?
not that orion isnt enough of course.
i still make use of it for midi, but the audio is useless for my needs.
i do more cutting and moving around, orion has no option for just pulling a sample across tracks, otherwise id still be using nothing but!
i added samplitude for audio work.

did you ever try ableton or just couldn't be bothered, no point if you can do everything you need in what you have i guess

[JJ_Jettflow]

So what's everyone's take on the DAW market? You thought about switching DAW's for another one? See any companies coming with a DAW next year?

Presonus-Studio One, Steinberg Cubase, Avid Pro Tools, Apple Logic X, Proellerhead Reason, Serato Studio, MOTU DP etc. Just any thoughts....

Could Izotope or Spectrasonics jump in the sequencer market in the future? What effects with Microsoft and Apple have on the market? Discuss...

I could see NI making Mashine into a DAW..most likely proprietary but I think it is more feasible than Izotope or Spectrasonics.

[machinesworking]

Hmm? the whole, the rest of the world is wrong argument.

Do you understand what your problem is? Your problem is that you can't separate yourself from your tools, your process or your choices. If someone challenges any of those things, you take it personally and respond emotionally, not rationally. I am not like that, I'll switch to something else in a heartbeat if it offers me a better workflow or let's me do things to a higher standard or just generally improves things for us.

I am not defined by the tools I use, I have no personal investment in them beyond the time and effort I spend learning how to get the most from them. I was never a Fruityloops guy or an Orion guy or a Bitwig guy and I am not now a Cubase guy. The only thing that I have any personal attachment to, the only thing that is important to me at all, is the stuff that ends up being encoded onto CDs and distributed via iTunes or Spotify. Everything that gets me to that point is just a tool and whether they are hardware or software, digital or analogue, they are all completely interchangeable as far as I'm concerned.

OTOH, you feel the need to defend your choices, as though you had a hand in their creation or something. It's like a mechanic being more proud of his chest full of tools than the performance of the race cars he prepares.

This is classic projection. You've spent years trashing other peoples choices in DAW, plug in etc. I'm very careful not to directly insult the individual when I criticize anything, but this is hilarious, the sheer volume of disdain towards other tools you show and have shown contradicts this post. Like I said, I don't even use FL Studio, but you're assessment of it was nothing more than typical dog pile posturing.
Even your assessment of my defending of my choices, I explicitly state shortcomings of anything I use, you can find plenty of direct evidence of this in any of my posts here. My pattern is I tend to be pretty judgmental of the DAWs I use and have little bad to say about plug ins. OTOH you are and will always be thought of in my head as the Orion guy, with the unwavering loyalty of a soccer thug.

That said, this is why people end up hating you, it’s not your opinion that gets the hate, it’s that you think everyone else’s opinion is idiotic.

And that's relevant to anything how, exactly? Again, you want to make it all personal. I don't care if you can't separate fact from your ego but it should go a long way towards explaining why I think so many opinions around here are largely worthless, don't you think? Honestly, the fact that you would hate someone for expressing an opinion on something as trivial as tools for making music should give you pause. It's just about the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

Front 242 is a great example. They often talk in interviews about how amazed and filled with gratitude they are towards the people who came up with all the great synths they use, how it's obvious to them that it's more than just a job to these people, and how it's inspiring to use something crafted with love etc.. I'm not that flowery about it, but let's admit that besides a few exceptions, the music software industry is not the way to make the most money coding.
I don't love every piece of software out there, but I recognize that someone does, someone thought it was going to be a successful program that people used to make music etc. Plenty of people love FL Studio, plenty of people make music using it, and prefer it, even after trying software you use. But here we have in this very thread you bragging about how much the developers hate you, how it's a "bad different" piece of kit, etc. etc. How would anyone not read your posts here and not think troll?

Not at all what I meant, you think your workflow at any moment in time is best.

Of course I do because if it wasn't, I'd change it. Why do you think I spend time here? e.g. How long do you think I spent looking at DP after you said it was your main host? Would it surprise you that I spent half-an-hour or more on the MOTU site checking it out and then I read the SOS review of DP9 in full before deciding not to download the demo? I spend time here primarily because I am looking for ways to improve the way I work.

What I was attempting to point out is that you leave no room for the plain fact that not everyone's workflow will be like yours. Given the fact that not all of us write the same kind of music, and that's going to absolutely require a vastly different workflow, it's safe to say that different DAWs have different strong points for these different workflows. i.e. FL Studio for someone is "good different". I don't have to like it personally to acknowledge that. I like DP, but I totally get why someone wouldn't like it. From what I've listened to of your music I wouldn't recommend it, you could absolutely work in it, but Cubase and Bitwig make more sense. Same with orchestral work, Cubase, DP and Logic are king there IMO, although some classical composers work in other DAWs, I think it's going to be easier in those ones.

Consequentially the tools you develop your workflow on become the ones you judge all other by.

What, the TB303? Or QX-7? I have developed a dozen or more different workflows over the years to accommodate whatever I had to work with. I now have a very different workflow in Cubase to that which I had in Orion. Orion, in turn, was very different to Fruityloops. I had a decent, usable workflow in Bitwig, too, it just wasn't terribly efficient, much like Cubase. The difference is that i feel Cubase has some compensations for that, whereas Bitwig didn't. e.g. With Bitwig I felt I still needed Audition for audio editing, I don't think I will in Cubase. But some of the little things I learned using Bitwig I carried back to Orion, like putting one-shot samples into an audio track instead of loading them into a sampler or drumrack, as I'd always done previously. So whilst my Bitwig experiment cost me a lot of money, it wan't a complete waste.

It’s why the first DAW that really clicks for people describes their choices going forward. Ableton users switch to Bitwig. Logic or DP users will switch to Cubase etc. Getting someone who uses Live to use DP is pretty much a no starter because the workflows are different. Consequentially people will hate the DAW they do not know how to use, with a workflow they are unfamiliar with, and it will contain a lot of confirmation bias, or frustration based on lack of familiarity.

And therein lies the problem - sheeple want every product to be all things so what we end up with are massive applications full to the brim with compromises in the attempt to please everyone. So, ultimately, you can use whichever one you choose and it will get the job done. You just have to choose which steaming pile of compromises is the least offensive to your sensibilities. In the race to be all things to all people, there are no longer any of them that can claim to be the perfect solution for everyone. Even Reason has ceased to be different in any meaningful way, just to chase market share.

From an outside perspective these look like conflicting thoughts. Bitwig requires a two track editor because it concentrates on other things, Cubase does not because it's a Jack Of All Trades approach. But the Jack of all trades approach is why DAWs suck?? Bear in mind I have no issue with either approach, my only issue is with a badly coded two track editor in a DAW as it signifies time wasted on something that isn't useful to anybody but an absolute noob. I actually think a DAW is as good as its core functions, so plug ins and editors are nice, but if there are inherent MIDI flaws, or things that you can't add in as a plug in etc. it's going to irritate me.

I don’t need FX and instruments, I don’t need things that VSTs can do

I definitely appreciate them because it saves me having to go out and find things just to do simple tasks. I prefer to reserve plugins for the more exotic things, I am more than happy to use the built-in stuff for the basics. I haven't put it to the test in Cubase but, in Orion, the native tools were way more CPU-efficient than any third party stuff and sounded at least as good. But if you are bouncing around from one host to another, then using plugins would be one less headache to deal with. That was a really big thing for me in Bitwig - I didn't feel that it's on-board instruments and effects were any good at all. That wouldn't worry me so much today, as I've spent a shitload on plugins in the last year or two, but back when I bought it, it was a real problem because 75% of the instruments we used and around 95% of the effects came from Orion.

Different perspective for sure. I used Logic for years and gave up on it shortly after it included all the previously paid for FX and instruments. I don't think it's any contest really in plug ins, Logic and Reason beat the snot out of everyone with included content, but it's not enough to draw me in completely. I'm a simple man, and it still pisses me off that in Logic you can't use an MPE instrument at the same time as another soft or hard synth. I'm not trying to be ELP here, but I don't want to bother with rearming tracks constantly. <-- DAW functionality beating embedded plug ins.

even extensive two track editing to me is silly considering how many cheap or free editors are out there.

For us that involves a lot of back-and-forth. It is way, way easier to do it in your DAW if you can.

Of course, but it goes back to your hatred of DAWs that are all things to all people, to me again, the core functionality is far more important than add on tools. Not that I'm unhappy when a built in editor is great, or have a problem with big complex sequencers. I have a problem with ideas that were started then not completed. Most DAWs have had pitch transposition algorithm's for instance, I hardly wanted them to begin with, they wasted development time on them, and they're eclipsed by third party solutions the day the update is released. DP has a fantastic one, which is cool I guess, but Melodyne will still beat it functionality wise.

Honestly more than other DAW you can turn off full parts of Reaper, empty the menus of commands, etc. etc. even customize buttons on the mouse. The one thing I do like about Reaper is the ability to force it to work the way you want it to.

Who can be arsed doing that, though? First you have to learn how to use it, then work out how you want to set it up. Life's too short.

I can quickly ascertain the workflow I wished a DAW would have VS what it has, and I'm probably a little OCD when it comes to a DAWs shortcomings. I switched away from DP in the early 2000's because of a rendering bug that in the bigger picture wasn't that big of a deal, but the fact that I can tweak the parts of a DAW that don't suite my workflow appeals to me. I don't think there's a right answer to this, it's just an is, Logic, Cubase, Reason, Bitwig etc. are all great DAWs that you can get a lot out of, I'm just pointing out that Reapers largest strong point is the fact that you could pretty much get it to imitate any DAW if you're so inclined.
Currently DP10 has an aftertouch bug, so I'm using Reaper again, and after about a year of tweaking it here and there in my spare time, I have it set up to where I like it. It makes me question using anything else really. Honestly I get bored easily, and learning a plug in or DAW sparks my creativity. Probably not true for everyone no doubt.

Sound quality is a false argument, period.

No it's not. I'm not talking about the way the host sums the signals in the mixer but the sound quality of the included instruments and effects. Rich constantly improved the quality of the tools inside Orion to the extent that I never even looked at 3rd party effects for the standard things (delay, reverb, compression, chorus, etc.). They were completely unnecessary and added nothing. In 18 years I spent less than $500 on plugins while we were using Orion. Since we started looking at other options two or three years ago, I reckon I've probably spent five times that, mostly trying to replace what we had. Orion had a 3 osc wavetable synth, just about the best sounding V/A I've ever used, three different drum machines, an excellent sampler, a 4 osc wave-morphing synth and it all came with a generous helping of super high quality sampled content to make it sound amazing.

Hear ya, I started off using Reason as a sound source rewired into DP. I switched away from it for no good reason. Mostly getting Komplete 2 and computers being powerful enough to run it. Biggest reason would be Absynth. It's shameful IMO that Absynth hasn't at least had a GUI fix, hopefully they do, otherwise I'm pretty much done with NI.

Of course a template, which any DAW really can do, would make this as easy as Orion.

Yeah but it's work that I don't feel I should have to do, an admission that Cubase isn't as easy to use as it should be. A bolted-on kludge to make it feel like its better than it really is.

I'm absolutely certain that Cubase has plenty of areas where it's vastly superior to Orion. This is the nature of choice, of them not all being the same etc. There's nothing bolted on about it not having a MIDI randomizer file instantly appear in it's sequencer, what would be bolted on is if they made an inferior copy of what Orion did to compete with it.

Then, as I said, you aren't reading in context. Mine was hardly the lone voice on the subject. I could have said exactly what they had said but i chose to summarise it. Remember, too, that I have actually used it, you haven't. If you tried it, I am reasonably confident that you'd see the truth of what I said. Of course, it's probably a lot less work for you to simply make assumptions based on nothing at all and to hell with reality.

My point, again, (if there ever was any point to this besides wasting time while eating breakfast. )
was/is that personally I cannot truthfully tell you which DAW to use, which one sucks etc. because as of 2019, most of them are long standing creations with user bases that love the workflow. Going back to Live, I've used it on and off since v3, around 2005, I still have long standing issues with the workflow, it's too mouse centric, it's far more centered around getting you up and running when you first start learning it, but it IMO falls short when you're a "power user". Going to meetups with other users though, it's amazing how many people really really love the way Live is set up, people get really into it, because for whatever reason it resonates with their workflow VS Cubase, DP etc.

I don't have to use FL to see the user base here and other places talk about it with joy. If you look at the "power user" section you'll see that it's going to appeal to DJ's far more than Cubase or DP does, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. If your music is drum centric, why would you have an issue with a DAW that is?
I've never used Orion but I'm certain it's a capable workstation considering the amount of people who used it and were unhappy it's not being developed anymore. Arguing the shortcomings of those DAWs VS others wouldn't make any sense, but I can certainly tell you what is missing or awkwardly set up in about a half dozen other ones. I'm just not impressed by blanket condemnation.

[machinesworking]

/end of you statements back and forth or this wont see page 13...and for some absolutely rediculous and embarrassing for each and every one of you participating in this non stop bullshit childishness I have to say it again.

ANY WORDS RESPONDING ON THOSE LINES COULD LAND ANY MEMBER SUSPENDED FOR A WEEK BECAUSE I'M TIRED OF

YOU IGNORING ME.

dont test me

If you're referencing me and Bones, I'm not offended by him, and I doubt he's offended by me.
I get our walls of text are annoying, personally I just don't bother reading when two members get that involved.

I can stop at any time, I actually do value contradicting opinions though, so I'm enjoying chatting with Bones even if others are sort of confused by that.

[machinesworking]

I could see NI making Mashine into a DAW..most likely proprietary but I think it is more feasible than Izotope or Spectrasonics.

Maschine already uses AU and VST plug ins, so it would hardly be proprietary in the bigger sense anyway.

I'm all for it, if NI secretly was developing Maschine into a real full fledged DAW I think it would successfully compete with soft/hardware solutions like MPC and Force. AKIAI are doing great things, but they're splitting the "DAW" away from the workstation sequencer in a way by this distinction.
NI fix their song timeline into a real linear sequencer with multiple time signatures, tempo changes, hosts audio tracks, and hosts their Patterns and incorporated Scenes in a logical way, and it's a real winner. It almost sounds like a modern take on Opcode Studio Vision married to an MPC!

[stearine]

Could anybody be so kind and tell me what is this "linear" way of working, or type of DAW? Please don't hurt me, I ain't looking for trouble.

[Karma_tba]

/end of you statements back and forth or this wont see page 13...and for some absolutely rediculous and embarrassing for each and every one of you participating in this non stop bullshit childishness I have to say it again.

ANY WORDS RESPONDING ON THOSE LINES COULD LAND ANY MEMBER SUSPENDED FOR A WEEK BECAUSE I'M TIRED OF

YOU IGNORING ME.

dont test me

If you're referencing me and Bones, I'm not offended by him, and I doubt he's offended by me.
I get our walls of text are annoying, personally I just don't bother reading when two members get that involved.

I can stop at any time, I actually do value contradicting opinions though, so I'm enjoying chatting with Bones even if others are sort of confused by that.

As much as I am a Bones ally when come to Orion...I can't be bothered to read to pages of text between Bones and who ever.

[Karma_tba]

@ vurt sorry but ableton just ain't my cup of pee.

[vurt]

Could anybody be so kind and tell me what is this "linear" way of working, or type of DAW? Please don't hurt me, I ain't looking for trouble.

think of it like a tape recorder, you can record a whole full length track in one take.
as oppose to loops or patterns.

[vurt]

@ vurt sorry but ableton just ain't my cup of pee.

no need for sorry, was just wondering
dont use it myself as i dont really do loops n stuff.

glad to see someone still flying the orion flag!
since bones went cubase i thought it was over