Ableton Live 10.1 now in Beta

[SLiC]

Yes, a 2 year upgrade cycle is normal, so Ableton and Bitwig would then cost about the same. Personally I like getting the 'big' upgrades as we go along, and I realy like getting updates 2-3 times a year...but thats personal choice (you could not upgrade Bitwig and wait for a load of stuff to accumulate and then it would actually cost less).

Ultimately both DAWS are getting better which is what realy matters

[voidhead23]

i also don't think it's a Bitwig v Live thing, it's a 'people want MPE in their DAW' thing. Easy. The only comparison is that they have a similar interface and are more or less targeted to the electronic market, but in wildly different directions. Pick the design philosophy that works best for you and move on.

i think the price thing evens out. Live is a big upfront investment, including the update prices. As someone who makes zilch from music, it's a tough pill to swallow. Then you get a few years of gradual but nice updates...even though a lot of this is either Push related (frustrating the Arrangement people) or Arrangement improvements that bring it closer in line to more traditional DAWs (frustrating the Push users and live performers).

Bitwig's approach seems to be lower upfront cost, higher rate of innovative updates during the year, and then a paid upgrade to continue if you find the program useful, thus kind of making Bitwig a good 'entry' option. Comparing the cost of Bitwig + updates for four years and Live outright is a wash, with Live only slightly edging out Bitwig's 4-year update price with Suite's $250 upgrade after that same time (which is still a lot).

As an aside, i really dislike Bitwig, but that's preference. i have the 8-track on my computer i toy around with sometimes, just to see if it does something for me.

i think the biggest thing is this...if the DAW gets the &%$# out of your way and allows you to do what you want to do with less fuss than any other DAW, doesn't crash every ten minutes, you make things with it, and it brings you some amount of joy in your miserable life, it can be worth almost any price. Users who love their tools will defend their cost because they have attributed a personal value to them, which is the important part. It just bites that the fun DAWs are so bloody expensive.

[Trancit]

It's not just live performance. I realize that a fair number of producers are working on-screen most of the time, using a keyboard mostly just to capture the notes. That's not how I work, and it's not how a lot of people work. We are recording a performance, and then tweaking said performance, and it's WAY less work to record that multi-timbral expression when playing than creating a bunch of automation afterward note-by-note.

And 95% of what you described can be done with normal integration of Midi... no need of MPE and in regards of polyphonic expression: In most cases you don´t hear any difference if the the expression is polyphonic or monophonic...

By your logic, you might as well argue that using mod wheels, expression pedals, aftertouch, and velocity is a million times worse than creating automation on-screen from scratch.

No, this discussion is not about clicking in automation vs. recording midi controller data, it´s purely about monophonic expression vs polyphonic...

Your logic doesn't even hold then. You CANNOT do per-note modulation in a polyphonic track without MPE (with the exception, perhaps of polyphonic aftertouch, which Live also does not support).

And this is completely wrong and people using this technique since ages, which is a lot more powerful and flexible...
You can do it by simply layering...
All people are crying about MPE... crying for a method, which let´s you do the job perhaps a bit quicker and easier... by replacing the need of layering with more comfortable MPE ... loosing much more possibilities than gaining some...

Genius is 1% inspiration and 99% transpiration a wise man has said...
You can do all of what MPE does already... but it´s a quite bit of work...
On the other hand, to get used to this technique pays out very easily as you are not stuck to just be able to modulate a little amount of parameters but everything inclucing everything which happens after the sound generator or even different generator...

All these huge sounds used nowadays aren´t possible without layering and if I have to layer anyway, where is the need of polyphonic expression on single layers... this is nonsense...
...and again even if you don´t layer for "expressive" single sounds, this can even be done with a few clicks as well (respectfully loop recording), respectively you cannot her the difference between monophonic and polyphonic expression anyway in most cases...

I think most of MPE lovers do not love MPE, they love these new types of controllers, which are more fun to use...

I stay with my statement:

MPE in the studio has only one result: making you lazy and let you loose billions of sound manipulation possibilities you perhaps would have used otherwise...

For live performance... I am with you...

[mcbpete]

Maybe they were waiting for MIDI 2.0

That is my guess/hope too, especially as Ableton & Cycling ’74 have now joined the MIDI Manufacturers Association (oddly enough Bitwig didn't seem to be listed) and it looks like MPE is just a part of the MIDI-CI spec (bottom left):

[SLiC]

Midi 2 is actually very exciting and will be a game changer for controllers (get, set, recall, auto configure etc) and I wonder if this will kill off proprietary (but quite open) system made by NI, AKIA, Nektar etc.

Either way, auto configure MPE will be great and if DAWS are going to fully support Midi 2 it may put MPE on the radar (I wonder who will be first?)

[Gamma-UT]

All these huge sounds used nowadays aren´t possible without layering and if I have to layer anyway, where is the need of polyphonic expression on single layers... this is nonsense...
...and again even if you don´t layer for "expressive" single sounds, this can even be done with a few clicks as well (respectfully loop recording), respectively you cannot her the difference between monophonic and polyphonic expression anyway in most cases...

I think most of MPE lovers do not love MPE, they love these new types of controllers, which are more fun to use...

Yes, yes, we get it. You don't want to use it. That's fine. But you're projecting a set of working methods and production styles onto something you don't really understand. So, all you're doing is filling up a thread with nonsense on something you don't want to hear about in the first place.

[Gamma-UT]

Midi 2 is actually very exciting and will be a game changer for controllers (get, set, recall, auto configure etc) and I wonder if this will kill off proprietary (but quite open) system made by NI, AKIA, Nektar etc.

Either way, auto configure MPE will be great and if DAWS are going to fully support Midi 2 it may put MPE on the radar (I wonder who will be first?)

As pointed out earlier, don't get your hopes up. Things in MIDIland change extraordinarily slowly. Things with alterable firmware like a Linnstrument could adopt it relatively quickly but think of all those hardware synths that will continue to use regular MIDI on a five-pin DIN.

And vendors like NI like having their own systems if they can get away with it.

[Trancit]

Yes, yes, we get it. You don't want to use it. That's fine. But you're projecting a set of working methods and production styles onto something you don't really understand. So, all you're doing is filling up a thread with nonsense on something you don't want to hear about in the first place.

Anyway... I am sure you are convinced from this...
What get perhaps a bit wrong here:
I am not against MPE in general and I am sure one can make use of it...

But I am really tired to read all these postings wanting to make everybody believe the world collapses if not every DAW developer immediately stops working on whatever he/she works and start to work on MPE support as every DAW not supporting it isn´t a real DAW anymore...

Even if you want to convince me other, for me it´s at the very end a gimmick and I would really like to hear examples only possible with MPE and there is no other way...
But for this examples I think I´ll wait the rest of my life...

[Gamma-UT]

If you can point out where these "world collapses without MPE" posts are that would be helpful. Otherwise it just looks like another piece of projection.

I agree that finding an example for you will be difficult, not least because trying to imagine the mindset of wanting to make cookie-cutter club bangerz by mousing everything in will do my head in.

However, you might want to ponder that your argument is akin to telling a guitarist they only need one string and not six because they could just record that string six times in a row.

[pdxindy]

BWS vs Live aside, this is a nice and very welcome update; I paid the upgrade price for nested groups and the hope that they would deliver more useful stuff to me in the future and we're off to a good start with 10.1. Ableton have finally made good on many highly requested features in the Beta forum which is great and long may it continue.

It is a solid update with new core functionality for Live users! Well done Ableton!

[pdxindy]

i also don't think it's a Bitwig v Live thing, it's a 'people want MPE in their DAW' thing. Easy.

Exactly... there are now a fair number of midi controllers that support MPE (including iOS) and people want their DAW's to support them.

I wanted to buy a Linnstrument and so I had to switch DAW's. I didn't want to stop using Live. At the time, Bitwig was frustratingly incomplete so I switched to Logic and Bitwig so that I could use my Linnstrument (which I waited 20 years for something like that to come out and which is incredible to play.)

[pdxindy]

And 95% of what you described can be done with normal integration of Midi... no need of MPE and in regards of polyphonic expression: In most cases you don´t hear any difference if the the expression is polyphonic or monophonic...

...

MPE in the studio has only one result: making you lazy and let you loose billions of sound manipulation possibilities you perhaps would have used otherwise...

For live performance... I am with you...

You really just have no idea what you are talking about. MPE is AMAZING for the studio... what you are saying is the same as telling guitarists that they do not need to do live note bends in the studio because they can go in and edit them in later... it's absurd.

[stillshaded]

So uh... can you change the position that playback starts from whole in details view yet? Or still have to click in arrangement view? Lol.

And yes I’m aware that you can click the ruler in the details window, but you have to do it every single time you want to start playback.

[andypryce]

alt/option space bar

[SoundPorn]

This may sound crazy but with things like MPE, Midi 2.0 coming out, and just the overall patterns that are emerging with the way people want their DAWS to do, like live looping, music theory hacks, video, and modular capability, these trends make me believe that Bitwig, Reaper, and Tracktion are positioned the best for the future because they're newer DAWs who are coded in a very open way. For whatever reason, these legacy DAWs who were ahead of the curve at one point like Ableton, are having trouble incorporating very contemporary features like Ableton just getting VST3, them and FL both having trouble with the MPE so that makes me think MIDI 2.0 will be a challenge as well.