Ableton Live 10.1 now in Beta

[Gamma-UT]

This may sound crazy but with things like MPE, Midi 2.0 coming out, and just the overall patterns that are emerging with the way people want their DAWS to do, like live looping, music theory hacks, video, and modular capability, these trends make me believe that Bitwig, Reaper, and Tracktion are positioned the best for the future because they're newer DAWs who are coded in a very open way. For whatever reason, these legacy DAWs who were ahead of the curve at one point like Ableton, are having trouble incorporating very contemporary features like Ableton just getting VST3, them and FL both having trouble with the MPE so that makes me think MIDI 2.0 will be a challenge as well.

Cubase and Logic both support MPE. The Logic support was pretty good out of the gate and it's now improved in Cubase.

Bitwig made a mess of the MPE implementation to begin with by culling the MIDI-channel data after recording (I'm not sure if that's been fixed now).

So, I don't think there's much to do with certain architectures other than early implementation choices might make it tougher to alter one DAW relative to another. Live can support MPE controllers right now (with some omissions). It's just that it's a PITA to set up and edit, though that second part is better in Live 10 now that's it's possible to see multiple clips at once.

[pdxindy]

Bitwig made a mess of the MPE implementation to begin with by culling the MIDI-channel data after recording (I'm not sure if that's been fixed now).

It is fixed now... it did take a while.

[Damare]

So glad they added wavetable importing, I love the UI of wavetable, my favorite synth atm.

[excuse me please]

https://magenta.tensorflow.org/studio/a ... e#overview

[trtzbass]

*sticks head in the door*

Hmmm - still no MIDI tempo map output and no comping ?
Not time to switch yet for me. Shame because I'd LOVE to.

[robbmonn]

And 95% of what you described can be done with normal integration of Midi... no need of MPE and in regards of polyphonic expression: In most cases you don´t hear any difference if the the expression is polyphonic or monophonic...

Vangelis. CS-80. The Blade Runner Soundtrack.

The polyphonic pressure sensitivity on that keyboard, played by that man, for that recording is all that anyone should need to consider when considering MPE.

The way that Vangelis produced music WAS performative. As is the way that I make music and many others. There is a lot that can be done this way that cannot be done otherwise (and vice versa for sure.) But please don't pretend it doesn't exist, and if you're tempted to.... well, listen to Vangelis.

I have a ROLI 49 and just mapping amplitude to pressure is a revelation. It is not a subtle effect, and it brings a level of expressiveness to keyboard performance that feels like playing a violin ensemble. It is a big deal. I don't know why someone would be invested in minimizing that. When Ableton has full MPE support we will see more controllers and software support this and that is a good thing.

[robbmonn]

MPE in the studio has only one result: making you lazy and let you loose billions of sound manipulation possibilities you perhaps would have used otherwise...

This is dumb. I'm sorry to be so direct. This is dumb. Saying that music shouldn't be performative means: you shouldn't use guitars. Or mics. Or voices. Or violins. Or pianos. I get that you are solid with regard to your position on this issue and how you work. That's great. I don't think anyone misunderstands your perspective. You are missing what others are saying and doing.

But, to directly respond: it is impossible to create a Rothko with MS Paint, even though every time Rothko painted a brushstroke he would loose[sic] a billion possibilities.

[robbmonn]

The fact is certainly this: the reason why there is no MPE in this release is that the MIDI and the MIDI clip code in Ableton is not where it needs to be to be changed such that it can support it. MIDI has always been limited in a number of ways that don't fit the fluidity and flexibility of the rest of the program. It feels like the rewrite of the MIDI layer is taking a long time and there Ableton is not incentivized enough to make it the top priority. This is why it is important to speak up.

I have shifted my workflow in the past six months to be this:

Logic hosting MPE instruments -> audio out -> Loopback -> Ableton for everything else.

I don't like this as I cannot record the MIDI performance and edit it, which is important. But, it works and it is reliable (much more than mpe-util for me) and so this is what I do. The thing is, though, that Bitwig has MPE and it is almost as good as Live and I could sell my Live suit license for more than enough to buy Bitwig. But... I don't want to. I would rather use Live. So, hey, Ableton, looking at you guys to at least make a statement as to your intentions.

[pdxindy]

The fact is certainly this: the reason why there is no MPE in this release is that the MIDI and the MIDI clip code in Ableton is not where it needs to be to be changed such that it can support it.

People have been asking for full midi channel support in Live for a decade

[Trancit]

This is dumb. I'm sorry to be so direct. This is dumb. Saying that music shouldn't be performative means: you shouldn't use guitars. Or mics. Or voices. Or violins. Or pianos. I get that you are solid with regard to your position on this issue and how you work. That's great. I don't think anyone misunderstands your perspective. You are missing what others are saying and doing.

But, to directly respond: it is impossible to create a Rothko with MS Paint, even though every time Rothko painted a brushstroke he would loose[sic] a billion possibilities.

Do you know, what is dump...???

To set expression on par to polyphonic expression...

I made it more as clear... this topic is not about shall I express or not... we are talking purely about polyphonic expression...
And still I didn´t heard any example, where this really matters in an studio enviroment vs making 2 or 3 layers of the same instrument and seperate the played notes on these different layers... having here not only the possibility to express one or two parameters but the whole instrument for the played notes on this layer... THIS is expression and not a controller gimmick for a few controls

Again MPE (polyphonic exporession not expression in general) is surely a help for performing... but again if you get your hands a bit dirty you can polyphonic express your sounds with multiple layers and seperating the played notes onto those layers 1000 times more expressive than any controller can offer...


EDIT: In addition to that... I am too not against all of you being in the need of such a controller and perhaps don´t want to deal with "real polyphonic expression"

My initial post was only against the argumentation, that only MPE support would enable the best possibilities... this is simply bullsh*t...

This are my last words on this topic... if you still don´t get it...

[pdxindy]

And still I didn´t heard any example, where this really matters in an studio enviroment vs making 2 or 3 layers of the same instrument and seperate the played notes on these different layers...

There are lots of examples, you just don't want to hear them.

I'm sorry, but you just have zero idea what you are talking about.

[robbmonn]

Doesn't sound like he listened to Vangelis.

[zzz00m]

I stay with my statement:

MPE in the studio has only one result: making you lazy and let you loose billions of sound manipulation possibilities you perhaps would have used otherwise...

Ummmm. Yeah...

https://youtu.be/iSko8vHOf8g

[antic604]

https://youtu.be/iSko8vHOf8g

Well, that was awesome!

[zzz00m]

https://youtu.be/iSko8vHOf8g

Well, that was awesome!

It's a great example of what MPE can add to a keyboard as far as expression goes. It's like a whole new dimension, in the hands of a skilled musician.

This video inspired me to start saving for a ROLI Seaboard, LOL!!!
https://roli.com/products/seaboard/