Ableton vs Bitwig - pros/cons?

[pdxindy]

- their nested devices thing can be good and bad... sure you gain flexibility but you loose oversight and things can get complicated very easily

you gain not just flexibility, but functionality that is not possible in Live. But if one does not want to nest devices, you can of course add devices in the exact same way as Live. Bitwig has the same method as Live, plus additional powerful functionality that is easy to use where desired... there is no bad side to that.

Ableton´s Audio and Instrument racks save much more space, which is essential for working with large chains...

I suspect your experience is based on Bitwig pre version 2. The Bitwig modulators take up far less space than doing the same thing using individual devices in Live (if Live can duplicate the functionality at all)

Also, one can create and save device chains in Bitwig without even having to use Racks... which also takes up less space. Live forces you to always be using Racks for even the most simple setups.

[dellboy]

I haven’t really thought through the logic, but if you had follow actions on both scenes and clips, which one would take priority? I could imagine there being a conflict in logic there, unless one always overrides the other.

I have just tested Bitwig with drum, bass, and piano of 2 bar length, and a longer 5 bar piano melody. I copied the two bar instruments down below a few times and set the scenes to play next. The result is chaotic.

A simple action would be for the 2 bar loops to keep looping until the longest loop in the scene finishes and then it drops to the next scene. As there is no option that allows this then the solution would be to make all the loops the same length and it would drop to the next scene ok. The problem of this approach is that the scene would not allow loops of mixed lengths.

So it looks like Bitwig is no better than Live regarding scene follows action.

[llze]

I haven’t really thought through the logic, but if you had follow actions on both scenes and clips, which one would take priority? I could imagine there being a conflict in logic there, unless one always overrides the other.

I have just tested Bitwig with drum, bass, and piano of 2 bar length, and a longer 5 bar piano melody. I copied the two bar instruments down below a few times and set the scenes to play next. The result is chaotic.

A simple action would be for the 2 bar loops to keep looping until the longest loop in the scene finishes and then it drops to the next scene. As there is no option that allows this then the solution would be to make all the loops the same length and it would drop to the next scene ok. The problem of this approach is that the scene would not allow loops of mixed lengths.

So it looks like Bitwig is no better than Live regarding scene follows action.

you can specify a time after which the follow action should start, so if you got mixed lengths you can define that. Maybe that helps?

do..after..

[pottering]

Can do Scene Follow actions with ClyphX:

http://beatwise.proboards.com/board/5
http://beatwise.proboards.com/thread/99 ... phx-live-9

You install it as a Remote Control script, then you rename Clips using their "code" (naming conventions) to do all kinds of stuff.

For example, you can rename a empty Clip:

[] scene >

"[]" tells Ableton/ClyphX that Clip is special, "scene" is a command for Scenes, ">" is the modifier that tells Ableton to trigger the next Scene, relative to current one.

It has a command named LSEQ that triggers a command each time the Clip loops (from a list of items separated by commas), and also a command that changes loop length, so you can sequence your entire set with just one "X-Clip" (the name ClyphX uses for those "special" Clips).

ClyphX can do other cool stuff too, worth giving it a look.

[teilo]

I have both (as well as Reason and Logic).

I'll only add to what others have already mentioned:

Bitwig properly supports MIDI VST effects - no need for separate tracks. Just drop the VST in front of an instrument and go. For example, using Cthulhu in Ableton requires separate tracks and sends. With Bitwig you just put it in front of your instrument.

Ableton's drum rack is way better than Bitwig's Drum Machine. For simple stuff, Drum Machine is great. But if you are trying to, say, map your pads and note names to different notes on a single VST instance, that cannot be done in Bitwig. It's a pain to do in Ableton, but at least it's possible. In Bitwig, you have to load independent plugins for each pad, and cannot change the note a pad is sending, which is pretty dumb when working with, say, a Kontakt drum kit. IMO - neither is ideal for that use case. Bitwig, however, does seem sympathetic to my complaint, and has implied that this is on their feature list. Time will tell.

Bitwig's layered midi editing is broken. The notes in multiple clips are often mis-alligned, particularly when a clip's start/stop has been changed, or you are trying to edit a looping section with other clips. This makes the whole thing useless in many cases. Ableton 10 gets this right.

Bitwig has no AU support.

Ableton's routing is limited. A track can have a MIDI send, or and Audio send, but not both. The Bitwig way is the Note Receiver effect - a midi effect that you can drop in front of an instrument, so it's not so much a send as a pull, but is much more flexible, since multiple tracks can be driven from the same source. This makes for some highly flexible scenarios.

MIDI editing sucks in both. I really wish they would pay more attention to what Reason and Logic do here. For example, why can't I split or glue notes? Why is option-drag in Bitwig so damn finicky?

[Reefius]

Ableton's routing is limited. A track can have a MIDI send, or and Audio send, but not both. The Bitwig way is the Note Receiver effect - a midi effect that you can drop in front of an instrument, so it's not so much a send as a pull, but is much more flexible, since multiple tracks can be driven from the same source. This makes for some highly flexible scenarios.

In Ableton you don't need an extra device for this. Yes you can only have one MIDI or Audio send, but you can create multiple MIDI and Audio tracks and set them all to receive from one and the same track, without the need of some 'Note Receiver' device.

[SLiC]

There are a million little pros and cons for each (I still have both but am selling Live) so it really depends what is important for you. For me, I use in clip editing all of the time, so BWS wins irrespective of any other feature. I waited many years for Live to add this (it was always one of the most requested features) but eventually (after another PUSH update grrrr) just jumped ship....

Lately I think the pop up browser (one more panel that can stay shut) is also becoming a 'must have' and MPE, VST3, Surface Mode (I have a MS Surface) basically just the icing on the cake in terms of picking just one.

[pdxindy]

Lately I think the pop up browser (one more panel that can stay shut) is also becoming a 'must have' and MPE, VST3, Surface Mode (I have a MS Surface) basically just the icing on the cake in terms of picking just one.

Bitwig's pop-up browser has grown on me... I appreciate that I can add a device without even looking at the screen and as you mention, I can keep the regular browser closed for more screen space. The pop-up browser could use a few more key commands for navigation.

[teilo]

In Ableton you don't need an extra device for this. Yes you can only have one MIDI or Audio send, but you can create multiple MIDI and Audio tracks and set them all to receive from one and the same track, without the need of some 'Note Receiver' device.

I stand corrected.

So I guess it just comes down to the difference as to how many tracks it takes to accomplish the same thing in Ableton. Bitwig allows you to do a lot of things with fewer tracks due to it's support for layering and VST MIDI effects. For example, you could do something crazy like have a track with a layered instrument where one layer is receiving notes from a different track, and the other layer is playing the current track's notes, with the output of both fed into that track's effects. (Why one would *want* do to that is another matter.) With Ableton's sends and buses, pretty much anything is possible, even it if takes more tracks to do it.

I really wish I could merge these two beasts together. Every time a plugin takes down all of Ableton, I go running to Bitwig. Every time I need freeze/unfreeze, I go running back to Ableton (because the whole dupe/bounce technique leaves a lot of clutter).

Since Ableton 10 introduced keyboard nudging, nested track groups, and layered editing, I have much less reason to use Bitwig. But overall I like the Bitwig workflow better.

[pdxindy]

So I guess it just comes down to the difference as to how many tracks it takes to accomplish the same thing in Ableton. Bitwig allows you to do a lot of things with fewer tracks due to it's support for layering and VST MIDI effects. For example, you could do something crazy like have a track with a layered instrument where one layer is receiving notes from a different track, and the other layer is playing the current track's notes, with the output of both fed into that track's effects. (Why one would *want* do to that is another matter.) With Ableton's sends and buses, pretty much anything is possible, even it if takes more tracks to do it.

I really wish I could merge these two beasts together. Every time a plugin takes down all of Ableton, I go running to Bitwig. Every time I need freeze/unfreeze, I go running back to Ableton (because the whole dupe/bounce technique leaves a lot of clutter).

Since Ableton 10 introduced keyboard nudging, nested track groups, and layered editing, I have much less reason to use Bitwig. But overall I like the Bitwig workflow better.

Bitwig needs less tracks also because it has Hybrid Tracks.

I'd welcome freeze in Bitwig... however, if the choice is between Live's track freeze and Bitwig's Bounce in Place (also Bounce), I'll take the bounce for sure. It's such a great workflow to be able to bounce in place a single clip on a track and then edit the audio, without having to duplicate the track and the FX as well. Hybrid tracks make that possible.

I used to find Live's freeze limited and frustrating. I would freeze a track, then decide I wanted to make a small change or use one of the midi clips from the track elsewhere... oh, gotta unfreeze the track, make an edit or duplicate of the midi clip, then re-freeze the whole track. If you are someone who makes long compositions, it can be a slow thing to re-freeze the whole track.

Some DAW's have a much more capable freeze than Live.

[antic604]

I'd welcome freeze in Bitwig...

Ctrl+G the track to put in in a Group, select time on the Group track & bounce-in-place it, Alt+A on the MIDI track to disable it, collapse the Group.

Sure, it's few more clicks, but it works no worse than Live's freeze.

[pdxindy]

I'd welcome freeze in Bitwig...

Ctrl+G the track to put in in a Group, select time on the Group track & bounce-in-place it, Alt+A on the MIDI track to disable it, collapse the Group.

Sure, it's few more clicks, but it works no worse than Live's freeze.

Actually, I'd prefer if there was a Bounce option that did all those steps with a single key command over Freeze... much more flexible to work with. Or a general macro system in Bitwig so users can create their own macros.

[xbitz]

I'd welcome freeze in Bitwig...

Ctrl+G the track to put in in a Group, select time on the Group track & bounce-in-place it, Alt+A on the MIDI track to disable it, collapse the Group.

Sure, it's few more clicks, but it works no worse than Live's freeze.

should put both the instrument and fx container to the group track and route the MIDI to it from the/a inner track, BWS bounce-out only those devices which are instruments / which are inside an instrument container(s), so can be played what is bounced(typically only the CPU heavy things but quite good for creative purposes too) and what is not

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvdrEtMREfY
fked the sound but u can see the wave forms, if distro plugin is inside the fx container it's not bounced (ofc. the instrument container also can be disabled with alt+a)

[xbitz]

MIDI editing sucks in both. I really wish they would pay more attention to what Reason and Logic do here. For example, why can't I split or glue notes? Why is option-drag in Bitwig so damn finicky?

can split notes in BWS, it's the zero length delete ... just press the delete in its PR it gonna cuts the notes at the position of the cursor

[musicartist]

How does the Bitwig sampler compares to the Ableton Live sampler, or simpler ?