Arrangement view in Ableton Live is a nightmare! Any tips?

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DJ Warmonger wrote:
jonljacobi wrote:Live is not Cubase and the sooner you stop trying to drive a round peg into a square hole, the easier it will be.
This. I see OP is more concerned about what Live cannot (or supposedly cannot) do, rather than exploring what it can do and what Live does well.

It's like trying to play guitar and complaining it does not have a sequencer, really :shrug:
Exactly, and I don't know what's wrong about it. What I already know about or how convenient it is I'm not going to ask any tips for :lol: :lol:

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tooneba wrote:OP is trying to use it for production, and expressing the frustration of its quirk caused by it being geared towards live performance and real time editing. So asking tips.

Suggesting to do live performance and real time editing isn't answer. It's rather what s/he is trying to bypass.

Thaaank you :clap: :clap:

BTW: Now that I'm having to work with it I'm also trying to get used to it to include it in a live/dj setup. Even for this you sometimes need the arrangement view. But people seem to get offended for saying what it is missing in terms of convenience. I got no doubt that Cubase is missing some features that Ableton has, and wouldn't question anyone asking for a workaround for them.

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J-909 wrote:You seem to not want to understand my points at all.
Eh? :D
J-909 wrote:Stop writing like you decide whether what I complain about or ask for is correct or not (it's not about correction it's about convenience).
Technically, I can't stop something I haven't even started.
J-909 wrote:PD: The only answer in which you actually got me is the Ctrl+E to cut..
I very much doubt it ;). You are saying you know how "things work", get frustrated when pointed at the manual, but you are missing so basic stuff that it's absolutely guaranteed you are missing some of the deeper functionality of this software (and perhaps other software) as well.

You also lose your cool when these things are honestly pointed out to you, so in time, trying to help you isn't that compelling.

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Ok, one particular issue:

When making a clip (midi or whatever) in Cubase you can set the playhead and loop section from within the clip editor itself. This is useful when you've done half the clip and are trying to get the last notes, you don't wanna listen to the full clip but just the last part.

How do you do that in Live or what's the alternative? I know there is the pre-listen function in the editor time line but it makes me go up there and keep the mouse clicked and clicking again to listen every time. In the meantime I can't be editing notes.

So far I'm looping through the full clip, which is a bit of pain in the neck. How do you cope with this in Live? Do you go to arrangement view to set the loop there and then back again to the editor to keep on editing? (in my case this takes many movements because I change the loop position as I progress making a clip).

:tu:

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Guenon wrote:
You also lose your cool when these things are honestly pointed out to you, so in time, trying to help you isn't that compelling.

Really? Did I not thank you for the playhead to Q tip? Did I not say it was a timesaver for me? Then:
J-909 wrote:That is the type of tips/workarounds I was talking about. Very nice! :tu:

(Time saver defo. Still not as convenient as just leaving the playhead somewhere like Cubase, Logic, etc)
What I obvoisuly don't find helpful is questioning my frustration/workflow issues. I just have it/them.

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Guenon wrote:
You also lose your cool when these things are honestly pointed out to you, so in time, trying to help you isn't that compelling.
It seems to me you are the one getting into making personal attacks... I think has kept his cool quite well

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J-909 wrote:What I obvoisuly don't find helpful is questioning my frustration/workflow issues. I just have it/them.
And I'm saying I'm not questioning them. Seriously. It's evident that you aren't that familiar with using the software, even though you say you know how to do things, and you would benefit from studying the manual more. This obviously doesn't mean your frustration and workflow issues aren't real. Also, some things obviously cannot be done in Live the way you want to do them, period. It's either, learn how to use what you do have at your disposal, don't assume you already know everything and just need "tips" (you are clearly missing some basics), and either make that work for you OR accept that you are going to have the same frustrations and issues over and over again until you use some other environment.

Also note, if someone says they prefer some other way of working than yourself, it doesn't mean they are questioning your workflow issues either; just stating how they see things themselves. It's about sharing an alternate viewpoint, one that someone might want to consider when learning an environment not that comfortable to them. Like, "does it sound like I might get used to working like that, or will it be constant grief if I have to try learning that sort of editing habits", for example. Instead, you seem to take things personally and get offended when offered input like this.

About the loop brace: Live is very much a "single view paradigm" environment, so the intended use of the main arrangement loop brace is to offer the anchoring point for the section you are currently monitoring, no matter whether you're doing edits in the main arrangement or MIDI editor. Keep your MIDI editor open so that you have a comfortable view to your arrangement in the upper section of the screen, and it becomes second nature to adjust that main brace over there. In Live 10, this action is pretty smooth actually, imo. Combine this with the Start Marker in your default project (mapped to a key), and you will soon get into the habit of dropping that where ever you're currently working, advancing its position at the relevant point in time when advancing in a MIDI edit, and so on. Then you have the loop control for what you're listening, in context, and a way to jump to a specific point in time as well.
pdxindy wrote:It seems to me you are the one getting into making personal attacks... I think has kept his cool quite well
Really? In that case, I need to adjust the way I give input on matters like this. I reread my messages even. If you mean me pointing out that he doesn't know how things work in this DAW even if he says he does, and doesn't actually have the basics together, and I'm referring him to the manual even if he repeatedly says he doesn't need it... And me saying that he doesn't react that well when being given such a comment, haha. Then hmm. I guess I could just try saying those things nicer :) ? Like, I don't see any of those as a personal attack, they are just how things evidently really are. Personal attacks would be something different in my opinion, and also immature. Sorry for coming across rude, however.

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pdxindy wrote: I think has kept his cool quite well
:hug:

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Guenon wrote:
pdxindy wrote:It seems to me you are the one getting into making personal attacks... I think has kept his cool quite well
Really? In that case, I need to adjust the way I give input on matters like this. I reread my messages even. If you mean me pointing out that he doesn't know how things work in this DAW even if he says he does, and doesn't actually have the basics together, and I'm referring him to the manual even if he repeatedly says he doesn't need it... And me saying that he doesn't react that well when being given such a comment, haha. Then hmm. I guess I could just try saying those things nicer :) ? Like, I don't see any of those as a personal attack, they are just how things evidently really are. Personal attacks would be something different in my opinion, and also immature. Sorry for coming across rude, however.
Thank you for an even reply.

In your defense, my comment was a result of a number of people getting on him... and maybe personal attack sounds on the strong side cause nobody called him an a-hole or some such... but taking it into the personal just rarely ever ends well. It's such a common thing (still working on it in myself) for someone to express frustration, and people try to help and for whatever reason, it is not right away 'resolved' they get annoyed with the person who is frustrated and start subtly or overtly attacking them.

It's only 4 days since the initial post... not a lot of time to improve ones skills with complex software, find suitable workarounds etc.

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Guenon wrote: (you are clearly missing some basics).
I've been producing for almost a decade in Cubase and a year with Bitwig, this is definitely not about basics. It's workflow and how to get around Live's which I'm finding tough. I don't recall asking for workflow tips for Cubase or Bitwig and never read the manuals (except particular points in the 3 daw's)

I'm not gonna argue anymore. Thanx for the marker-playhead tip.

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pdxindy wrote:In your defense, my comment was a result of a number of people getting on him... and maybe personal attack sounds on the strong side cause nobody called him an a-hole or some such... but taking it into the personal just rarely ever ends well.
Yeah, and I did sound rude when reading back, so yep, cheers.
J-909 wrote:I've been producing for almost a decade in Cubase and a year with Bitwig, this is definitely not about basics. It's workflow and how to get around Live's which I'm finding tough.
Trust me, nobody is doubting your handle on the basics and even all the advanced stuff in general :). I mean the basics of how to do things in Live, of course.

Good that you aren't interested in arguing, there is absolutely no need to.

Back on topic again, I was under the impression you're using Live 10? I'd like to ask about this thing again. You said I "seem to not want to understand" your points, but I honestly don't understand this, so I'm asking, that's all:

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J-909 wrote:I have to keep on going down to the sample editor to set the actual position of the sample content in the clip.
I really thought you meant you'd like to do the above when saying this. So I honestly misunderstood what you wanted to get across. What did you mean if not this?

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Guenon wrote:
pdxindy wrote:In your defense, my comment was a result of a number of people getting on him... and maybe personal attack sounds on the strong side cause nobody called him an a-hole or some such... but taking it into the personal just rarely ever ends well.
Yeah, and I did sound rude when reading back, so yep, cheers.
J-909 wrote:I've been producing for almost a decade in Cubase and a year with Bitwig, this is definitely not about basics. It's workflow and how to get around Live's which I'm finding tough.
Trust me, nobody is doubting your handle on the basics and even all the advanced stuff in general :). I mean the basics of how to do things in Live, of course.

Good that you aren't interested in arguing, there is absolutely no need to.

Back on topic again, I was under the impression you're using Live 10? I'd like to ask about this thing again. You said I "seem to not want to understand" your points, but I honestly don't understand this, so I'm asking, that's all:

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J-909 wrote:I have to keep on going down to the sample editor to set the actual position of the sample content in the clip.
I really thought you meant you'd like to do the above when saying this. So I honestly misunderstood what you wanted to get across. What did you mean if not this?
It's all right :tu:

Yeah I'm using 10, better arrangement with respect to 9 (mouse wheel zooming etc)

What I meant is that clip management (audio and midi) is a bit rigid. This thing of going from arrangement to editor constanty slows me down. The issue there was that I wasn't able to change the extension either from within the editor or the arrangement "back in time". That means, if I wanted to extend the clip towards the beginning of the song I couldn't: In the editor it's impossible (maybe missing sth) to extend to the left and in the arrangement it only looped the content. I've found that if loop is disabled it can be done in arrangement, so forget about it, just telling you to know. I would expect the editor to let me move the clip start to the left.

In the case of audio clips I like to make 1 bar clips that contain audio placed somewhere in the middle in a particular position, like to be able to manage it without thinking of content placement troughout the song. So if (-) was 1/4 of silence and (*) was 1/4 of audio my clip would be:
--*-
and I just move that bunch around. I do this because when I find the perfect position of the audio I don't want to be trying to fit it to the exact same position in the timeline when I make copies of it. And the solution you proposed (offsetting the content) wouldn't let me place it any further than the starting point. It's a bit hard to explain but I hope it's understandable. In Cubase and Bitwig clips are made of events (events would be the audio itself) and the space between events silence. So you can extend clips without affecting audio and including whatever other audio you want

To sum up: my issue would be that clip editor has its own time ruler, which makes its 0 be an absolute 0 unless you change the start position from the arrangement or introducing the number manually. I find this a bit weird since I don't have flexibility in time to the left (I like to put there chords and stuff of reference) and loose the context of the song.

But I might be missing sth again, I'm definitely not used to Live. Sorry for such a bore post :lol:

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J-909 wrote:So if (-) was 1/4 of silence and (*) was 1/4 of audio my clip would be:
--*-
and I just move that bunch around. I do this because when I find the perfect position of the audio I don't want to be trying to fit it to the exact same position in the timeline when I make copies of it. And the solution you proposed (offsetting the content) wouldn't let me place it any further than the starting point.
Hah! Now I get it, and previously I truly didn't :). Yes, I see what your preferred workflow with the slip editing / offsetting is like.

When dropping in a sound file, having it unwarped on the timeline (or, "not having warp engaged", as warp can be enabled without any warping/stretching effect on the audio too), Live only allows you to operate within the length of the actual audio data in the sample. In other words, the clip container isn't capable of being a container for both the audio data and abstract silence, in that case.

However, when the warp mode is enabled, it also turns the container into a more flexible one, even if there's no actual warping applied. The above offsetting action, right on the arrangement lane, then allows you to move the audio data inside the clip container more freely, adding "container silence" when appropriate. If you have an unwarped clip, you can also do the ctrl+j consolidating action on it, and it will be replaced with a new clip, warp enabled, on the fly.

Here I have dropped in an audio file, the length of the audio data is what the clip container indicates. Then doing a ctrl+j and slipping the audio data around, going past the actual end points in the file (again, the audio file actually only has audio for the length of the clip container's worth) :

Image

It's an idiosyncrasy of Live how the container is more absolute when warping isn't enabled; basically I don't see an actual compelling reason, other than legacy, why it defaults to that when disabled. Note that luckily you can engage warp on as many selected unwarped clips you happen to have in a project, in one go.

Not a bore post at all btw, I enjoy stuff like this... Off the top of my head, this is what I came up with, but maybe there's someone who can offer an even better way to do this, as in turn, I don't usually do this as a part of my editing habits.

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Guenon wrote:
When dropping in a sound file, having it unwarped on the timeline (or, "not having warp engaged", as warp can be enabled without any warping/stretching effect on the audio too), Live only allows you to operate within the length of the actual audio data in the sample. In other words, the clip container isn't capable of being a container for both the audio data and abstract silence, in that case.

However, when the warp mode is enabled, it also turns the container into a more flexible one, even if there's no actual warping applied. The above offsetting action, right on the arrangement lane, then allows you to move the audio data inside the clip container more freely, adding "container silence" when appropriate. If you have an unwarped clip, you can also do the ctrl+j consolidating action on it, and it will be replaced with a new clip, warp enabled, on the fly.

Here I have dropped in an audio file, the length of the audio data is what the clip container indicates. Then doing a ctrl+j and slipping the audio data around, going past the actual end points in the file (again, the audio file actually only has audio for the length of the clip container's worth) :

Image

It's an idiosyncrasy of Live how the container is more absolute when warping isn't enabled; basically I don't see an actual compelling reason, other than legacy, why it defaults to that when disabled. Note that luckily you can engage warp on as many selected unwarped clips you happen to have in a project, in one go.

Not a bore post at all btw, I enjoy stuff like this... Off the top of my head, this is what I came up with, but maybe there's someone who can offer an even better way to do this, as in turn, I don't usually do this as a part of my editing habits.
All right mate!! Very nice :clap: :clap:

I thought I had already tried that and supposed it didn't work. I didn't know it was necessary to have warp activated and the audio I used mustn't have had it.
That and the playhead on marker thing will reallly save me loads of time. Two "thank you"s !!

Very nice of you to help and with such dedication :tu: :hug:

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No problem man :)

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:party:

(The above is my interpretation of "Arrangement view in Ableton Live is a nigthmare!" :P :P The ugly motion blur is an in-DAW look too, haha, had a mishap when editing the theme file in a text editor and literally made a motion blur theme that is completely unusable)

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