Nothing Here - Delete it.

[BONES]

I see no pics. Do I have to follow the link or something? (I don't do click-bait.)

[Benedict]

BONES it ain't clickbait, just follow the link - or not.

Sorry, but right now I am on the verge of deleting the post from here and maybe even my KVR profile as this behavior is not remotely kind but as you will see if you read the whole thread, there are more who want to perpetuate it than stick to the rules they agreed to when they signed up - be kind (therefore not a fuckwit).

[highkoo]

The thing is...
Doing art, learning art, is about process.
That is maybe the fundamental lesson in fine art.
Sometimes I think that is really actually the only lesson that an artist can be taught.

[BONES]

BONES it ain't clickbait, just follow the link - or not.

It wasn't very clear. You said "these two images", which made it seem like they were images I should be seeing while reading, and then said "read more...", so it read like the images should have been visible and I'd only need to follow the link for extra info information.

You should have realised that around here you weren't going to get any traction suggesting that they don't already know everything and might have room for improvement. They are so terribly insecure that admitting that would destroy them. Don't let it get to you, I realised long ago that they are beyond help.

[highkoo]

I realised long ago that they are beyond help.

And yet you persist.

[oxygenmask]

Hi Benedict. If she is going to be an artist, there is nothing you can do for her. She will learn her craft. She will be criticized and hurt by her peers and her audience. She will either turn that hurt into perfecting her style, or she will quit. I know that we all have gone through this as musicians/composers/artists. We all have Soundcloud/YouTube accounts where people crap on us all day long with no consequence. Yet, we still do it. And we get better at our own pace while we try to digest the negativity. I think we all do what we do regardless of who comments. In fact, we are in a hateful spiral. We want to share what we do with others, but yet, we are sensitive to criticism because the audience has no idea what went into our work. Worst of all, family seems to be the worst audience because they can hurt you on a level no one else can.
So, I guess what I'm trying to say (and what I think others are reacting to in your post), is let her do it without too much critique. If she's serious, she will soon outpace your ability to give credible feedback. Her talent will be greater than your ability to talk about it authoritatively. But the one thing nobody has mentioned yet is that she will never forget the time she spends talking to you about her art. That might just be the biggest positive push she needs to overcome the tidal wave of negativity she will deal with for the rest of her life.

[Benedict]

You should have realised that around here you weren't going to get any traction suggesting that they don't already know everything and might have room for improvement. They are so terribly insecure that admitting that would destroy them. Don't let it get to you, I realised long ago that they are beyond help.

A fuckin' men
I so wish it wasn't so but it is.

[Benedict]

Hi Benedict. If she is going to be an artist, there is nothing you can do for her. She will learn her craft. She will be criticized and hurt by her peers and her audience. She will either turn that hurt into perfecting her style, or she will quit. I know that we all have gone through this as musicians/composers/artists. We all have Soundcloud/YouTube accounts where people crap on us all day long with no consequence. Yet, we still do it. And we get better at our own pace while we try to digest the negativity. I think we all do what we do regardless of who comments. In fact, we are in a hateful spiral. We want to share what we do with others, but yet, we are sensitive to criticism because the audience has no idea what went into our work. Worst of all, family seems to be the worst audience because they can hurt you on a level no one else can.
So, I guess what I'm trying to say (and what I think others are reacting to in your post), is let her do it without too much critique. If she's serious, she will soon outpace your ability to give credible feedback. Her talent will be greater than your ability to talk about it authoritatively. But the one thing nobody has mentioned yet is that she will never forget the time she spends talking to you about her art. That might just be the biggest positive push she needs to overcome the tidal wave of negativity she will deal with for the rest of her life.

Thanks, yes this is all true to some extent or other.

This negativity here (and before at ReasonTalk) has had a terrible impact on me in the last few weeks. I am Autistic so I see the world in terms of right & wrong. I do all I can to never be/do wrong so I can be valued by those around me. Suggesting that by trying to be any sort of parent, let alone a helpful one, to my kids/s was wrong was extremely hard. It even had me thinking that I shouldn't even try to help them at all. It had me question if I was even fit to parent, or if I should just take Old Hank's advice to find a river, go down three times and come up twice.

Not trying to be overly dramatic but to show people that their words online have a massive impact. It can be kind or it can be mean but if it isn't kind it is mean and that is devastating to people who care. We are all musicians here so why do we tolerate and even encourage this sort of meanness?

My girls became aware of the drama here and the pain it was causing me. They both made a point of coming to me really confused that people would ever say these things. They made it clear that they knew I was always trying to help them to be more creative. Hannah herself was quite upset that her "amazing" drawing experience was now causing me pain and was there anything she could do to help make people know that she loved how I helped her see what she could do.

Yes, I can only do some of the technical training for my daughters but I can always be trying to instill the right mindset in them. This was about mindset more than any technique. The Mr. Miyagi or Yoda stuff if you will.

Judgment is part of becoming an artist, what is working, what is not. Judgment and being judgmental are not the same thing despite what the popular zeitgeist says in memes. What hurts so much here is people being judgmental (esp seeing in doing so they are misquoting me).

[Hink]

Hi Benedict. If she is going to be an artist, there is nothing you can do for her. She will learn her craft. She will be criticized and hurt by her peers and her audience. She will either turn that hurt into perfecting her style, or she will quit. I know that we all have gone through this as musicians/composers/artists. We all have Soundcloud/YouTube accounts where people crap on us all day long with no consequence. Yet, we still do it. And we get better at our own pace while we try to digest the negativity. I think we all do what we do regardless of who comments. In fact, we are in a hateful spiral. We want to share what we do with others, but yet, we are sensitive to criticism because the audience has no idea what went into our work. Worst of all, family seems to be the worst audience because they can hurt you on a level no one else can.
So, I guess what I'm trying to say (and what I think others are reacting to in your post), is let her do it without too much critique. If she's serious, she will soon outpace your ability to give credible feedback. Her talent will be greater than your ability to talk about it authoritatively. But the one thing nobody has mentioned yet is that she will never forget the time she spends talking to you about her art. That might just be the biggest positive push she needs to overcome the tidal wave of negativity she will deal with for the rest of her life.

Thanks, yes this is all true to some extent or other.

This negativity here (and before at ReasonTalk) has had a terrible impact on me in the last few weeks. I am Autistic so I see the world in terms of right & wrong. I do all I can to never be/do wrong so I can be valued by those around me. Suggesting that by trying to be any sort of parent, let alone a helpful one, to my kids/s was wrong was extremely hard. It even had me thinking that I shouldn't even try to help them at all. It had me question if I was even fit to parent, or if I should just take Old Hank's advice to find a river, go down three times and come up twice.

Not trying to be overly dramatic but to show people that their words online have a massive impact. It can be kind or it can be mean but if it isn't kind it is mean and that is devastating to people who care. We are all musicians here so why do we tolerate and even encourage this sort of meanness?

My girls became aware of the drama here and the pain it was causing me. They both made a point of coming to me really confused that people would ever say these things. They made it clear that they knew I was always trying to help them to be more creative. Hannah herself was quite upset that her "amazing" drawing experience was now causing me pain and was there anything she could do to help make people know that she loved how I helped her see what she could do.

Yes, I can only do some of the technical training for my daughters but I can always be trying to instill the right mindset in them. This was about mindset more than any technique. The Mr. Miyagi or Yoda stuff if you will.

Judgment is part of becoming an artist, what is working, what is not. Judgment and being judgmental are not the same thing despite what the popular zeitgeist says in memes. What hurts so much here is people being judgmental (esp seeing in doing so they are misquoting me).

Hi Benedict, first let me say that I understand and you're not wrong. However, that does not mean that the responses of others here are wrong either and I think you know that. This is highly subjective and it's your child, you know your child and what she responds to best. When you bring it here you do open the door for the negative comments and really we cant force people to agree.

I understand the difficulty in not starting to take it personal but perhaps you should step back and remember your bigger picture. You're a dad dude, and you're a good dad, it really doesn't matter much what others think of that. They do not know your situation anymore than you know theirs, you know what's going on because as parents we see it in the eyes of our kids.

There still might be some helpful comments mixed in and if you feel people are judging you harshly try to remember my friend that THAT is not YOUR problem. I use an expression here a lot that you might really understand, your perception is your reality but in this case it's not you. Their perception is their reality, it doesn't define you.

Now I need to ask you a little favor, could you remove the comment about pedophilia in a post above this one I quoted? I would appreciate it a lot, I have seen those kind of comments get taken out of context to easily and I wouldn't want this going off on a negative tangent like that.

Oh, and please dont go anywhere, dont delete anything

[oxygenmask]

Well first of all, every parent questions whether they are fit to parent. If they don't, then they are the ones probably not fit. It must be very hard to see the world in black and white. Even if you can't see it, know that there is grey all over the place. Certainly, it's the right thing to help your kids, even if you/we do it in a way that isn't helpful. That's what parenting is all about... people who don't know the answers trying to teach their kids how to deal with not knowing the answers. We will get it wrong, but by no means can you give up, stop trying, or go for a too long swim.

You have a great kid there. She sounds pretty amazing because she's upset about the crap your getting for telling a story about her that should be positive but is turning very negative. That's the kind of paradox we write songs about.

We just have to learn how to show others who are interested in creativity the path. They will find out which way to go from there just like we did. I agree with what you said about judgement, but the judgement that matters is hers. She gets to decide what's good or not. Every artist comes equipped with a vicious internal judge. Between that judge and the rest of the hordes in the world, there's enough of that already.

Oh, and the other thing is that money and "pro" are evil concepts that will destroy creativity and we need to keep them away from children at all costs. The good news is that it seems damned near impossible to make money with music. I don't know much about art, but I would imagine it's the same story.

[fairlyclose]

I thought I was being helpful but clearly not - my apologies and easy fixed

[Benedict]

Hi Benedict, first let me say that I understand and you're not wrong. However, that does not mean that the responses of others here are wrong either and I think you know that. This is highly subjective and it's your child, you know your child and what she responds to best. When you bring it here you do open the door for the negative comments and really we cant force people to agree.

I understand the difficulty in not starting to take it personal but perhaps you should step back and remember your bigger picture. You're a dad dude, and you're a good dad, it really doesn't matter much what others think of that. They do not know your situation anymore than you know theirs, you know what's going on because as parents we see it in the eyes of our kids.

There still might be some helpful comments mixed in and if you feel people are judging you harshly try to remember my friend that THAT is not YOUR problem. I use an expression here a lot that you might really understand, your perception is your reality but in this case it's not you. Their perception is their reality, it doesn't define you.

Now I need to ask you a little favor, could you remove the comment about pedophilia in a post above this one I quoted? I would appreciate it a lot, I have seen those kind of comments get taken out of context to easily and I wouldn't want this going off on a negative tangent like that.

Oh, and please dont go anywhere, dont delete anything

Thanks, Hink and I appreciate your looking in on this. I will happily remove my non-accusation when the thing it references - and is equally potentially disturbing if spread as it has already - is removed as requested. Rules are rules or not at all. As long as the accusation or allusion is chosen to be kept in print, so must the defense.

I don't expect people to agree with me all the time. That is an accusation people make but is about them not me. I am delighted to have a spirited conversation where we dig into a subject and examine it with adult words like "when you said... did you wonder..." What I will not accept is comments presented so poorly (even if supposedly intended as tolerable) they are just plain rude or in cases here deliberately unkind (trolling).

I constantly wonder why the latter appears to be supported or even encouraged but that is another discussion even tho they overlap.

[deastman]

That article pains me to read. I don’t see an aspiring young artist, desperate to improve her craft. I see a creative eight year old being told by her father that what she drew isn’t good enough and having all the specific flaws pointed out. Her work is only worthy if it conforms to adult expectations. Personally, I much prefer the vibrant color and imagination present in the original drawing.

This pains me, even more, to read as you (and others) ride roughshod over what I did and what I wrote to express YOUR PROBLEMS. Further, by choosing to misrepresent what I wrote, this indicates that you are calling me a bully to my child. This is slander. Much as if I expressed my "feeling" that you were a kiddie fiddler based on your writing "When she was eight, we would sit and draw together, side by side."

It is not ever OK and I expect a retraction of this and all other claims from others here that I was simply being mean to my child. You all were simply being mean in writing to make yourself feel better at my expense because of your own issues. Shame on you all. As I already pointed out, that is not discussion. If you wanted to discuss those things, sure I would have been happy to but learn to speak nicely (to me at least) or not at all.

Right now this doesn't feel like a community so much as a place where the incompetent few crucify any who dare to try to do anything to better themselves and those around them. Where are those Mods or decent people who should be saying to those who did this, "not ok buddy". Vurt you, with all your "power" here, are the worst in this situation as you chose to lead people in this vile trolling/lynching when I have always been respectful of you (even if at times I plain don't like what you do).

I should not have to be defending myself from the likes of this. But I do so I will be LOUD about it.

I didn't love practice as a kid myself, so I did the weak thing and gave up. My problem. My problem now in that I can't go off and earn a buck and meet people by playing pick-up in a band. Should I wish that mistake on my kids?

Okay, look: you’re the one who comes here proclaiming to have the secret to improving everyone’s creative abilities by leaps and bounds, and links to a blog post about your chosen method of working with your daughter to improve her artistic abilities, as if that is some universally accepted “correct” way of doing things.

I disagree with your approach, and I used a relevant example from my own life. This is what is known in civilized circles as “discourse” and “dialogue”.

Your response is waaaay over the line. Not only did you claim that I’m somehow slandering you and demand an apology, but you actually went so far as to call me a “kiddie fiddler”, aka a pedophile. That is actually slander, and I am not going to stand for it. Either you publicly apologize in this thread, or I’m going to have to ask a moderator to step in.

[Forgotten]

I will happily remove my non-accusation when the thing it references - and is equally potentially disturbing if spread as it has already - is removed as requested. Rules are rules or not at all. As long as the accusation or allusion is chosen to be kept in print, so must the defense.

Sorry, but this is just BS - you effectively called the guy a pedophile and refuse to retract that unless he retracts his criticism of your methods? It’s in no way a “defense” - you just went out of your way to say the most offensive thing possible.

Out of respect for the job that Hink is doing I’m going to say this and step away, but you really need to do some growing up.

[Hink]

I removed it