I'm only starting to learn about mixing techniques, and would appreciate your advice on this question.
What if your songs includes only a vocal and a piano? So it seems originally you only have two tracks in your DAW: vocal and piano.
Would you add more tracks, and in what way, to make the song sound fuller?
This situation reminds me of such songs as Bruno Mars's When I Was Your Man.
My sincere thanks for your explanation.
What if your songs includes only a vocal and a piano?
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- KVRAF
- 2185 posts since 10 Jul, 2006 from Tampa
You probably wouldn't want to make the song sound "fuller" if piano and vocal is all it needs. But if you're considering adding more tracks/instruments, it sounds like you're really asking about arranging, instead of mixing. Arranging deals with the instruments and the parts they play, so if you want to add strings or a synth pad or something, that's arranging. Mixing would address the relative levels of the piano and vocals, and any effects you add (such as reverb).
I've done a few piano only tracks, and a few where I thought the piece might work better with some strings, synth pads or guitar to accompany the piano. Really though, it depends upon the song, the vocal line, and what the singer (and pianist) are doing. If the piece works well with just piano and vocal, there's no need to add more instruments--especially if the pianist and vocalist are doing more than just simple parts. You don't want the piece to sound too "full" by having a busy piano part and vocal line...and then slapping more instruments on top of that.
Steve
I've done a few piano only tracks, and a few where I thought the piece might work better with some strings, synth pads or guitar to accompany the piano. Really though, it depends upon the song, the vocal line, and what the singer (and pianist) are doing. If the piece works well with just piano and vocal, there's no need to add more instruments--especially if the pianist and vocalist are doing more than just simple parts. You don't want the piece to sound too "full" by having a busy piano part and vocal line...and then slapping more instruments on top of that.
Steve
Here's some of my stuff: https://soundcloud.com/shadowsoflife. If you hear something you like, I'm looking for collaborators.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 66 posts since 19 Jul, 2012
Thank you so much for your reply.
I do not mean to add more instruments.
Perhaps I should rephrase the question: It seems originally in my DAW, I only have two tracks: vocal and piano.
Should I duplicate the piano many times? That is what I meant by 'adding more tracks'.
I do not mean to add more instruments.
Perhaps I should rephrase the question: It seems originally in my DAW, I only have two tracks: vocal and piano.
Should I duplicate the piano many times? That is what I meant by 'adding more tracks'.
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- KVRAF
- 2565 posts since 2 Jul, 2010
If it's a real piano, I'd have several tracks for different microphones, including some with more room ambience. There's not a lot of point in making tracks with duplicate recordings (traditionally this is called "multing") unless you have some specific parallel processing technique in mind.
Room ambience and reverb is very important for a piano + vocals mix. If you have a nice room and a few microphones you should be able to make a good start from there. Otherwise if you have dry parts I'd be sending to several reverb busses. You may like to experiment with compression and/or gating on some of those busses, which would give a way of adding "size" to the piano, but it depends on the sound you are going for and how dynamic the performance is.
Room ambience and reverb is very important for a piano + vocals mix. If you have a nice room and a few microphones you should be able to make a good start from there. Otherwise if you have dry parts I'd be sending to several reverb busses. You may like to experiment with compression and/or gating on some of those busses, which would give a way of adding "size" to the piano, but it depends on the sound you are going for and how dynamic the performance is.
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- KVRAF
- 2185 posts since 10 Jul, 2006 from Tampa
You definitely don't want to duplicate the piano many times. All that will do is make the piano much louder, while possibly also introducing phasing and timing issues.fantasyvn wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:17 am Thank you so much for your reply.
I do not mean to add more instruments.
Perhaps I should rephrase the question: It seems originally in my DAW, I only have two tracks: vocal and piano.
Should I duplicate the piano many times? That is what I meant by 'adding more tracks'.
Is this a real piano you've recorded, or is it a plug-in instrument?
As @imrae suggests, using the additional virtual microphones on your plug-in (if that's what you used for the piano) can help make the sound fuller, because they add a bit of the room ambience. If your plug-in doesn't offer options for additional microphones, you can add a bit of reverb to the piano track. If you do that, however, you'll also want to add the same reverb (or close to it) to the vocal track so that it sounds like it was recorded in the same room as the piano.
Steve
Here's some of my stuff: https://soundcloud.com/shadowsoflife. If you hear something you like, I'm looking for collaborators.
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- KVRAF
- 2185 posts since 10 Jul, 2006 from Tampa
Which plug-in instrument? We might be able to help a bit more if we know which one you're using.
Steve
Here's some of my stuff: https://soundcloud.com/shadowsoflife. If you hear something you like, I'm looking for collaborators.
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- KVRAF
- 2185 posts since 10 Jul, 2006 from Tampa
I don't have Keyscape, but from what I've seen on Spectrasonics' site, there are options for "Color Shift" and reverb settings on the acoustic grand piano. Just play around with those to see if you can get close to the sound you want. If you can't get the sound you want, you'll probably need to use a reverb plug-in but be sure to disable the on-board reverb before you do that.
On some of the other pianos, there are microphone options or other settings in the "Main" section that you can adjust. The website doesn't show the "Pop" piano, so I'm not sure what your options are for that.
Keyscape also has a built-in compressor on some of the pianos, and that can help make the piano sound more "full". (Technically, all the compressor will do is make the piano a bit louder, so try not to overdo it.)
You can also use a compressor after your external reverb plug-in, to compress the sound of the reverb. This is a bit more involved, but it's done often in Pop (and other) recordings, to make the piano sound more full. If you do this, you'll want to disable the on-board reverb, though you can still use the on-board compressor, if that helps. You'd then insert a reverb plug-in and then a compressor after the reverb, to compress the reverberation sound. Again, be careful not to overdo it, because all you're really doing is making the piano louder, and you could easily end up with a piano that sounds "full"--but not very realistic.
Steve
On some of the other pianos, there are microphone options or other settings in the "Main" section that you can adjust. The website doesn't show the "Pop" piano, so I'm not sure what your options are for that.
Keyscape also has a built-in compressor on some of the pianos, and that can help make the piano sound more "full". (Technically, all the compressor will do is make the piano a bit louder, so try not to overdo it.)
You can also use a compressor after your external reverb plug-in, to compress the sound of the reverb. This is a bit more involved, but it's done often in Pop (and other) recordings, to make the piano sound more full. If you do this, you'll want to disable the on-board reverb, though you can still use the on-board compressor, if that helps. You'd then insert a reverb plug-in and then a compressor after the reverb, to compress the reverberation sound. Again, be careful not to overdo it, because all you're really doing is making the piano louder, and you could easily end up with a piano that sounds "full"--but not very realistic.
Steve
Last edited by planetearth on Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Here's some of my stuff: https://soundcloud.com/shadowsoflife. If you hear something you like, I'm looking for collaborators.
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- KVRAF
- 2185 posts since 10 Jul, 2006 from Tampa
Good luck!
Steve
Here's some of my stuff: https://soundcloud.com/shadowsoflife. If you hear something you like, I'm looking for collaborators.
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- KVRian
- 1030 posts since 26 Feb, 2018
As a piano player: Important to consider that a piano + singer composition usually assumes that the piano has all the space to fill with notes. You'd write a piece differently if you know it's piano only compared to piano + backup instruments, because you would want to leave some room for the other instruments.
If you feel your piano is not filling the space perhaps the composition is not taking up enough space. In such a situation perhaps you do want more instruments involved. At the minimum you could add a drone/pad in the bg, some string ensemble to do bg, or even do some call & response for empty spaces.
How to thicken the sound - here are some ideas, not necessarily all at the same time:
- Thick reverb. Sometimes even multiple reverbs, like a regular room + a short plate
- Compression to thicken the piano
- global parallel compression. This works every time. Send all tracks to a side bus, then put a heavy compressor on that side bus, then adjust volume to taste. It will make the whole song louder and denser without killing the character.
- Chorusing / stereo-placed doubling / pitch doubling. Any solution to thicken by adding varied copies of the original track
If you feel your piano is not filling the space perhaps the composition is not taking up enough space. In such a situation perhaps you do want more instruments involved. At the minimum you could add a drone/pad in the bg, some string ensemble to do bg, or even do some call & response for empty spaces.
How to thicken the sound - here are some ideas, not necessarily all at the same time:
- Thick reverb. Sometimes even multiple reverbs, like a regular room + a short plate
- Compression to thicken the piano
- global parallel compression. This works every time. Send all tracks to a side bus, then put a heavy compressor on that side bus, then adjust volume to taste. It will make the whole song louder and denser without killing the character.
- Chorusing / stereo-placed doubling / pitch doubling. Any solution to thicken by adding varied copies of the original track
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- Banned
- 2288 posts since 24 Mar, 2015 from Toronto, Canada
I haven't heard that Bruno Mars track. But I think it might be a worthwhile excersize to use the other extra tracks to try out how harmonies or backing vocals might play out on your piano/vocal singer/songwriter tune. Once you move your focus out of the main vocal part and start thinking about how other vocal parts might play out I find it really makes you evaluate the main volcal Melody of the song and it's structure and phrasing..
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- Boss Lovin' DR
- 12621 posts since 15 Mar, 2002 from the grimness of yorkshire
Context is all, sometimes the simpler the better if the performances can carry it...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE70AgkeTZc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE70AgkeTZc
