How to achieve big space feel like this one

[hhuang9611]

Hi guys,

I am currently having some hard time trying to achieve big space feel, which I think is quite important for Trance tracks I am making.

Here is my all-time favorite track as an example: (the big space feeling of the lead pluck, just so beautiful!)
https://youtu.be/_b8ZTnz3ufw?t=98

And here is what I have have done so far, I feel like I have achieved some space feel but not as big as the one in the example:
1. I send lead, pad etc to a bright big hall reverb. Shelving off some low end to avoid muddying my mix.
2. I also send those tracks to a "depth reverb," which is basically another big space reverb, but before sounds are fed into the reverb engine, I cut off low end and high end. This is a technique I learned from a book, can't remember which one tho. But this really works well for achieving a feeling that the sound is coming from far away
3. Room and Plate reverbs are also used along with big hall reverb to help achieve the space feel.
4. I also add some ping-pong delays to lead sound.
5. Stereo widening is also used on lead and pad.

And that's pretty much it. I am wondering if there is anything I missed that can help me bring up the big space feel? Or could it just be that I did not mix well enough... To be honest Trance tracks are so hard to mix for me, because too much stuff is going on.

Thanks in advance for anyone sharing their thoughts.

[SonicArtworks]

6. Longer Predelay on the the Reverbs. (to keep the direct Sound)

[SonicArtworks]

If you like you can sent me your final Track.....i can Master it for free if you want.

[Tj Shredder]

Its just a really good mix. He is playing a lot with the distance within that huge space. Some of the lines are coming from far away or moving back and forth. A lot of tasteful side chaining the reverb, though I think its not side chaining, more rhythmic modulation, as it goes on when there is no other signal...
And no, mastering will not get you there!

[recursive one]

A lot of tasteful side chaining the reverb, though I think its not side chaining, more rhythmic modulation, as it goes on when there is no other signal...

Sidechain from a ghost kick or "fake sidechain" via LFO Tool, was discussed in that Wags' trance thread

And no, mastering will not get you there!

Sure.

Actually I don't think any "special" techniques are used here, it's just clever use of the common ones. I don't think you need to use mutliple reverbs, it may make the mix more muddy. I'd use one reverb as a global send, a bright hall with long predelay and big long tail, cut the lows and highs on the reverb, perhaps compress the reverb tail to make it more upfront, sidechain it to kick/ghost kick/LFO tool, and add another sidechain compressor so that the reverb would be ducked a bit by the main leads (there was some discussion in another thread whether this compressor should be put before or after the reverb, the former is said to give cleaner results but the latter is far easier to set up).

Ping pong and stereo widener on the main leads is ok, but be sure to check it in mono, the leads shouldn't collapse when monoed.

Ofc, you can use additional reverbs for certain elements, for the percussion you'll probably want to have a dedicated send to small room reverb.

Keep in mind that the example you posted had been mastered (a multiband , a limiter, etc) and then most likely is was additionally compressed when put into that radio mix. I'd search for an originally released version to use as a reference.

[Samplecraze]

It would be far more helpful to hear your track and make useful suggestions based on what you have done.

[hhuang9611]

Its just a really good mix. He is playing a lot with the distance within that huge space. Some of the lines are coming from far away or moving back and forth. A lot of tasteful side chaining the reverb, though I think its not side chaining, more rhythmic modulation, as it goes on when there is no other signal...
And no, mastering will not get you there!

Sidechain from a ghost kick or "fake sidechain" via LFO Tool, was discussed in that Wags' trance thread

Actually I don't think any "special" techniques are used here, it's just clever use of the common ones. I don't think you need to use mutliple reverbs, it may make the mix more muddy. I'd use one reverb as a global send, a bright hall with long predelay and big long tail, cut the lows and highs on the reverb, perhaps compress the reverb tail to make it more upfront, sidechain it to kick/ghost kick/LFO tool, and add another sidechain compressor so that the reverb would be ducked a bit by the main leads (there was some discussion in another thread whether this compressor should be put before or after the reverb, the former is said to give cleaner results but the latter is far easier to set up).

Ping pong and stereo widener on the main leads is ok, but be sure to check it in mono, the leads shouldn't collapse when monoed.

Ofc, you can use additional reverbs for certain elements, for the percussion you'll probably want to have a dedicated send to small room reverb.

Keep in mind that the example you posted had been mastered (a multiband , a limiter, etc) and then most likely is was additionally compressed when put into that radio mix. I'd search for an originally released version to use as a reference.

Thanks guys, I never thought of adding sidechain to the reverb, will definitely try that! And yeah, I figured that there should be a lot of work put into mixing to achieve this kind of feel...

It would be far more helpful to hear your track and make useful suggestions based on what you have done.

Good point! Here is an uplifting trance track I just finished (I shared it at the music cafe section as well). Personally, I am okay with the space feeling up till 3:05, but when the main lead comes in, somehow the big space feel is lost, and that's where I am currently struggling.
https://soundcloud.com/ray_d8/argonradio-edit

[Tj Shredder]

I don‘t think the space is lost at 3:05, if you want to have it bigger there, add dynamics in the sense of leaving space for a build up before...

[legendCNCD]

I would make it more mono before the cut comes in 3:05, then have it a bit bigger in stereo for a while.. also I would filter that arp almost off before the drop

Theres something in the bass drum section which makes it a bit blurry, try to highpass your BD with resonant peak until it kicks through better <- NOTE : I listened on shitty creative game headphones and it also sounds like the BD might be too long, the tail of it.

[dv1651st]

This might have already been said but focus more on the production side with quick as-you-go type mix downs. If you worry too much about what reverb settings to use/what compressor, etc, you'll waste precious stamina that you could be allocating towards creating good music. Just my tip

[MogwaiBoy]

I'm gonna give you a boost and say... I like your track better. I do. It's cleaner and more dynamic - the breakdown is really nice.

As for that big lead/pluck sound in the reference track, I'd say they're using a lot more ping pong delay/reverb than yours - keep the pre-delay long and in sync. And tonnes of automation on the cutoff filter + there's some insane high pitch white noise throughout that really heightens your senses.

But you are crafting great music, man!

[hhuang9611]

I don‘t think the space is lost at 3:05, if you want to have it bigger there, add dynamics in the sense of leaving space for a build up before...

I think you are right...I guess the space is not lost but just does not get bigger as I expected, which makes me feel like it gets smaller. Making the previous section mono-er might be a nice solution. Thanks!

I would make it more mono before the cut comes in 3:05, then have it a bit bigger in stereo for a while.. also I would filter that arp almost off before the drop

Theres something in the bass drum section which makes it a bit blurry, try to highpass your BD with resonant peak until it kicks through better <- NOTE : I listened on shitty creative game headphones and it also sounds like the BD might be too long, the tail of it.

Nice suggestion! I will give it a go!

This might have already been said but focus more on the production side with quick as-you-go type mix downs. If you worry too much about what reverb settings to use/what compressor, etc, you'll waste precious stamina that you could be allocating towards creating good music. Just my tip

Thanks for the tip! It's a good advice for sure! In case of this track, I think the composing phase is done, so now I am just trying to figure out how I can make it sound more like what I have in mind.

I'm gonna give you a boost and say... I like your track better. I do. It's cleaner and more dynamic - the breakdown is really nice.

As for that big lead/pluck sound in the reference track, I'd say they're using a lot more ping pong delay/reverb than yours - keep the pre-delay long and in sync. And tonnes of automation on the cutoff filter + there's some insane high pitch white noise throughout that really heightens your senses.

But you are crafting great music, man!

Thank you so much for the compliment! I really appreciate that. And your analysis of the reference track is very useful too!

[hhuang9611]

Okay... So I have started another uplifting trance project and I have put some more effort into that big space feeling. It is not done yet, but here is a short demo for the build up and drop section. It has the same structure as the one I shared previously, but I might adjust it later on.
https://soundcloud.com/ray_d8/short-demo/s-CkaKW

Any feedback will be welcome! Although I don't hear too much muddy stuff, since there is a lot of reverb going on, if you spot any muddy thing, please let me know. I am also trying to figure out a different kind of break section for this track, so if you have any suggestions, I would really appreciate it!

[recursive one]

Sounds good to me! Don't hear any mud myself. Actually if you are using different reverbs for different synths it may get muddy, or may not. If different reverbs have similar settings they may blend nicely.

I like the kick more this time.

That break sounds fine to me, maybe the transition from the break to the drop is a bit generic (swooshes, drum rolls, repeating the first notes of the theme, has been done 1000 times)

I really like your melodies.

[alonl6]

Hey
To me it is sounds like you don't pan right or left hard enough. I don't think it's about reverbs.
also, the levels of the different elements is important. More volume = more close. Less volume = more far away.
Here is some kind of a trance I made (its a rough demo)
The last song you posted sounds better to my opinion (space wise)

https://metapop.com/alon-lubin/tracks/o ... emix/60673