Need Upper Frequencies Help Desperately

[wagtunes]

I do agree with many that mixing with your ears only is far more natural and intuitive for a musician, but sometimes the visual aspects of looking at the graphical displays of spectrum visualizers and oscilloscopes can be quite helpful, educational and even somewhat intriguing. Took me a few years before I was ready for that step that though, and still I feel like I'm a rookie when I read how knowledgeable some of the guys on this forum are

Believe me, I wish I could do this visually so that I didn't have to rely on my ears at all.

You always have to rely on your ears mostly, the visuals are only a small aspect to help a little. Thank god it's only the higher frequencies

But still, painting and being partly colour blind would be a nightmare too.

Yeah, it's right at 5k that everything disappears. That's why I can't tell when things are too harsh, like hats, cymbals, tams, etc.

Oh well, such is life. I don't know how to fix it (if you still ultimately have to hear) so there's not a lot I can do. I'll just try to make a mental note to pull the volume down until I can't hear whatever it is in the mix at all. At that point normal people will probably still be able to hear it. That's the only solution I can think of.

[Unaspected]

You could use the pink noise technique with an analyser, without needing to use your ears.

Though, if mixing audio was all visual, it wouldn't appeal to me at all. When I read about people wanting to take shortcuts or have parts of the mix process performed automatically I don't get it. That would take all the fun out of it. I understand the need for automating or streamlining common tasks but not the mix process itself. It's both a technical and artistic skill.

[Mushy Mushy]

Was he Australian? The guy with back problems a.o.? Or am I confusing him?

Yep, probably still is too

Um, that's not how I meant it
Poor guy, I remember exchanging a couple of pm's with him a few years ago...

Yeah it's just my standard "comedy" retort when somebody says that.

[Lotuzia]

You might want to read the answers made to you first though. Solutions there are ....

[wagtunes]

Here's what I don't understand. Why I'm driving myself crazy over this.

Who made these rules that a hi hat has to be at a certain db in a mix or a tambourine or a cymbal? I mean I can understand why we do certain things, like take out all the mud from the low end of an instrument that isn't audible because all that stuff muddies the mix or why we scoop out certain frequencies of instruments in the vocal range so that the vocals stand out and don't get buried. But seriously, what the hell does it matter if a hi hat is 3 db or 4 db or whatever? Why does everything have to be just so in a mix so that it's either barely audible or "punches" through or whatever. What if you don't want a kick that sounds like somebody is kicking in a door? I mean why does everything have to have all these rules when the only thing that really matters is the song and whether or not people like it?

[Mushy Mushy]

Here's what I don't understand. Why I'm driving myself crazy over this.

Who made these rules that a hi hat has to be at a certain db in a mix or a tambourine or a cymbal? I mean I can understand why we do certain things, like take out all the mud from the low end of an instrument that isn't audible because all that stuff muddies the mix or why we scoop out certain frequencies of instruments in the vocal range so that the vocals stand out and don't get buried. But seriously, what the hell does it matter if a hi hat is 3 db or 4 db or whatever? Why does everything have to be just so in a mix so that it's either barely audible or "punches" through or whatever. What if you don't want a kick that sounds like somebody is kicking in a door? I mean why does everything have to have all these rules when the only thing that really matters is the song and whether or not people like it?

If people followed rules then metal, punk, grunge, industrial, etc etc etc wouldn't exist.

Take metal for example, the guitar and drums completely dominate over the lead vocal whereas in pop it's the opposite.

[fluffy_little_something]

Because there might be a fine line between what the listener considers unconventional and irritating/painful

[Mushy Mushy]

Because there might be a fine line between what the listener considers unconventional and irritating

So all the genre's I just mentioned

[Unaspected]

Here's what I don't understand. Why I'm driving myself crazy over this.

Who made these rules that a hi hat has to be at a certain db in a mix or a tambourine or a cymbal? I mean I can understand why we do certain things, like take out all the mud from the low end of an instrument that isn't audible because all that stuff muddies the mix or why we scoop out certain frequencies of instruments in the vocal range so that the vocals stand out and don't get buried. But seriously, what the hell does it matter if a hi hat is 3 db or 4 db or whatever? Why does everything have to be just so in a mix so that it's either barely audible or "punches" through or whatever. What if you don't want a kick that sounds like somebody is kicking in a door? I mean why does everything have to have all these rules when the only thing that really matters is the song and whether or not people like it?

I think it's down to what sounds most natural. We judge the balance with our ears and what we feel. It's a vibe thing. What you add to the mix is going to be influenced by what you have already mixed. If you need more interconnectedness, that's where side-chains can be useful.

[wagtunes]

Here's what I don't understand. Why I'm driving myself crazy over this.

Who made these rules that a hi hat has to be at a certain db in a mix or a tambourine or a cymbal? I mean I can understand why we do certain things, like take out all the mud from the low end of an instrument that isn't audible because all that stuff muddies the mix or why we scoop out certain frequencies of instruments in the vocal range so that the vocals stand out and don't get buried. But seriously, what the hell does it matter if a hi hat is 3 db or 4 db or whatever? Why does everything have to be just so in a mix so that it's either barely audible or "punches" through or whatever. What if you don't want a kick that sounds like somebody is kicking in a door? I mean why does everything have to have all these rules when the only thing that really matters is the song and whether or not people like it?

I think it's down to what sounds most natural. We judge the balance with our ears and what we feel. It's a vibe thing. What you add to the mix is going to be influenced by what you have already mixed. If you need more interconnectedness, that's where side-chains can be useful.

Except have you ever heard drums live? They sound nothing like they do on recordings with mics put all over the place. THAT to me is natural. Not this ridiculous amount of processing we do.

[Unaspected]

Here's what I don't understand. Why I'm driving myself crazy over this.

Who made these rules that a hi hat has to be at a certain db in a mix or a tambourine or a cymbal? I mean I can understand why we do certain things, like take out all the mud from the low end of an instrument that isn't audible because all that stuff muddies the mix or why we scoop out certain frequencies of instruments in the vocal range so that the vocals stand out and don't get buried. But seriously, what the hell does it matter if a hi hat is 3 db or 4 db or whatever? Why does everything have to be just so in a mix so that it's either barely audible or "punches" through or whatever. What if you don't want a kick that sounds like somebody is kicking in a door? I mean why does everything have to have all these rules when the only thing that really matters is the song and whether or not people like it?

I think it's down to what sounds most natural. We judge the balance with our ears and what we feel. It's a vibe thing. What you add to the mix is going to be influenced by what you have already mixed. If you need more interconnectedness, that's where side-chains can be useful.

Except have you ever heard drums live? They sound nothing like they do on recordings with mics put all over the place. THAT to me is natural. Not this ridiculous amount of processing we do.

Then follow Steve Albini's methods. Mixing starts with microphone choice.

[thecontrolcentre]

Here's what I don't understand. Why I'm driving myself crazy over this.

Who made these rules that a hi hat has to be at a certain db in a mix or a tambourine or a cymbal? I mean I can understand why we do certain things, like take out all the mud from the low end of an instrument that isn't audible because all that stuff muddies the mix or why we scoop out certain frequencies of instruments in the vocal range so that the vocals stand out and don't get buried. But seriously, what the hell does it matter if a hi hat is 3 db or 4 db or whatever? Why does everything have to be just so in a mix so that it's either barely audible or "punches" through or whatever. What if you don't want a kick that sounds like somebody is kicking in a door? I mean why does everything have to have all these rules when the only thing that really matters is the song and whether or not people like it?

I think it's down to what sounds most natural. We judge the balance with our ears and what we feel. It's a vibe thing. What you add to the mix is going to be influenced by what you have already mixed. If you need more interconnectedness, that's where side-chains can be useful.

Except have you ever heard drums live? They sound nothing like they do on recordings with mics put all over the place. THAT to me is natural. Not this ridiculous amount of processing we do.

That's why I record all my drum loops with two mic's ...

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

If people followed rules then metal, punk, grunge, industrial, etc etc etc wouldn't exist.

Take metal for example, the guitar and drums completely dominate over the lead vocal whereas in pop it's the opposite.

These were conscious decisions, though. It wasn't because of a fault in some producers hearing that the guitars and drums in metal were the dominant force. And while punk was rough as hell at pub gigs, 'Never Mind The Bollocks' was produced by people who knew exactly what they were doing i.e they knew the rules well enough to know how to break them.

[andrelafosse]

Here's what I don't understand. Why I'm driving myself crazy over this.

Who made these rules that a hi hat has to be at a certain db in a mix or a tambourine or a cymbal?
[...]
But seriously, what the hell does it matter if a hi hat is 3 db or 4 db or whatever?

It comes down to how important it is to accommodate other listeners, as opposed to pursuing your own vision.

For me personally? Instruments like tambourines or cymbals, or anything in that hi-mid 1 - 4 kHz "danger zone," can be really distracting if they're too loud. Ideally the arrangement and mix should enhance and serve the song. Now, that can be a very subjective thing. But if your hi-hat or tambourine is competing with your lead vocal for the listener's attention, then you need to ask yourself if the lead vocal or the tambourine is meant to be the star of the show.

I know a woman who likes to wear a ton of makeup. I find it really distracting, and she's commented about how many people criticize her for wearing too much makeup. But she likes herself that way, and for her it's ultimately more important for her to like the way she looks than to conform to a lot of other people's criteria.

Arrangements and mixes are like makeup and clothes for a person. Sure, it'll be the same person underneath it all, but presenting that stuff in different ways will make a huge difference in how easy or difficult it is to present oneself to various people.

I think the best idea is to find examples of commercial releases that you really like the sound and feel of, and scrutinize those recordings. It doesn't need to be exactly the same instrumentation, because there's NO style of music where the instrumentation is exactly the same from one song to the next, from one artist to the next. But really analyzing the relative volumes of different instruments.

It's not about setting the tambourine to -3.4 dB instead of -3.2 dB; it's about studying the overall sound of a track/style/genre, and being able to get within an acceptable ballpark.

One other thing: there's a reason why different areas of record production have different people specializing in them. If you look at most albums made during the "golden age" of big-budget recordings, you could easily have production, arrangement, recording, mixing, mastering, performing, ALL handled by COMPLETELY different people. It's not impossible to multi-task, and there are some people who can wear multiple hats at once and do a good job.

But this sort of issue is a great example of specifically why different people are historically in charge of different facets of making recordings.

[thecontrolcentre]

If people followed rules then metal, punk, grunge, industrial, etc etc etc wouldn't exist.

Take metal for example, the guitar and drums completely dominate over the lead vocal whereas in pop it's the opposite.

These were conscious decisions, though. It wasn't because of a fault in some producers hearing that the guitars and drums in metal were the dominant force. And while punk was rough as hell at pub gigs, 'Never Mind The Bollocks' was produced by people who knew exactly what they were doing i.e they knew the rules well enough to know how to break them.

Making music isn't the same as recording it. Breaking "the rules" musically wont help you if its then badly recorded/mixed.

... +1 to what andrelafosse wrote.