Empty mixes

[dewgong]

Sorry I meant to actually ask a question originally I'll keep the example though because its instructive and its publicity (if that's allowed in this subforum). Can anyone relate to the feeling that their mixes have a hollow space in them and that they lack the presence and dynamism of music they hear in commercial releases? Depth and mastering could be part of the solution but ive heard that same "deadness" in commercial tracks. Its a feeling that the music has taken on life and the sounds have a palpable energy. The entire stereofield also has this same intensity. Even the "silent regions" sort of hum inaudibly. I think that this is more complex than just mastering and depth. I think composition is definitely involved

Does anyone agree that this mix sounds a little lifeless?

https://soundcloud.com/heliope/composition/s-GYlYe

[dewgong]

Anyone? This is really frustrating. I thought I had it cracked but no show. Could it just be mastering?

[DJ Warmonger]

The entire stereofield also has this same intensity.

What makes you think it should?
I can hear everything is panned around randomly for no purpose, which confused the listener. The same is true for reverb. In general, the acoustic image is not consistent and does sound like a dry synth rather than full arrangement.

[thecontrolcentre]

Can anyone relate to the feeling that their mixes have a hollow space in them and that they lack the presence and dynamism of music they hear in commercial releases? Depth and mastering could be part of the solution but ive heard that same "deadness" in commercial tracks. Its a feeling that the music has taken on life and the sounds have a palpable energy. The entire stereofield also has this same intensity. Even the "silent regions" sort of hum inaudibly. I think that this is more complex than just mastering and depth. I think composition is definitely involved

Does anyone agree that this mix sounds a little lifeless?

There's no variation in your mix. It's the same riff all the way with a little variation in the beats. Also ... it lacks "palpable energy" because it hasn't been mastered. Try adding some mastering compression and EQ (or give it to someone who knows what they're doing). Mastering won't make the mix more interesting, but it will sound more "pro".

[dewgong]

Can anyone relate to the feeling that their mixes have a hollow space in them and that they lack the presence and dynamism of music they hear in commercial releases? Depth and mastering could be part of the solution but ive heard that same "deadness" in commercial tracks. Its a feeling that the music has taken on life and the sounds have a palpable energy. The entire stereofield also has this same intensity. Even the "silent regions" sort of hum inaudibly. I think that this is more complex than just mastering and depth. I think composition is definitely involved

Does anyone agree that this mix sounds a little lifeless?

There's no variation in your mix. It's the same riff all the way with a little variation in the beats. Also ... it lacks "palpable energy" because it hasn't been mastered. Try adding some mastering compression and EQ (or give it to someone who knows what they're doing). Mastering won't make the mix more interesting, but it will sound more "pro".

Im not sure why a repeating pattern is a bad thing. It was favoured by Alice Coltrane and Mccoy Tyner. Do you think this particular song actually needs harmonic change? If so that's interesting because my lecturer said the same thing lol

[dewgong]

The entire stereofield also has this same intensity.

What makes you think it should?
I can hear everything is panned around randomly for no purpose, which confused the listener. The same is true for reverb. In general, the acoustic image is not consistent and does sound like a dry synth rather than full arrangement.

Well I haven't panned things randomly at all. There are only about 5-6 synths in total and they all have their own space. Could you maybe elaborate a bit on what you mean by random panning? I know that between intention and execution alot gets lost in translation so ive probably just created panning that seems wild and random without meaning to

[Ronny Pries]

Also ... it lacks "palpable energy" because it hasn't been mastered. Try adding some mastering compression and EQ (or give it to someone who knows what they're doing). Mastering won't make the mix more interesting, but it will sound more "pro".

I couldn't agree less and you're getting a very ugly message across with that statement. Which is: without mastering tracks will sound bad.

Especially those struggling with problems like dullness, emptyness etc shouldn't be told to throw stuff on the master they weren't able to employ in good ways within their mix. It won't fix anything. Most likely just kill dynamics. Last not least: that's not "mastering" either.

@dewgong

First and foremost, imho the composition is fine. I like that oldschool IDM notion.

To answer your initial question: yes, i know the feeling of hollowness or emptyness from when i started producing. I guess everybody does.

I suggest you should start investing time in mixing tools and a bit in understanding audible perception. In your track everything comes from the same direction (what thecontrolcenter said) and the individual tracks don't seem to add up harmonicly. EQing, as in giving each element its own space in the frequency spectrum will help solving part of the problem.

Another thing is the overall lack of details in the individual tracks. Once that high percussion pops in at 1:06 pretty much the rest of the track becomes a blur. Why? It has x times as much audible transients as everything else. Gets all my attention.

I'd also get rid of the reverb, it just adds to the drowning problem.

What i'd do is start adding punch to the drums. The kick would be easier to follow with additional higher harmonics. Those stuttered percussion would benefit from off-centered panning and or widening.

In case of doubt throw away everything that clutters the mix, start balancing with an EQ and a bit of panning. Subtle saturation is also a mighty tool to increase an elements audibility without actually making it louder. Plus it adds harmonics that break up that perfect digital sound a little.

Once you found a balance, bring back delays and reverbs.

Btw, soundonsound is a mighty resource for everything mixing.

[dewgong]

Thanks! There's alot of brilliant advice here.

I suggest you should start investing time in mixing tools and a bit in understanding audible perception. In your track everything comes from the same direction (what thecontrolcenter said) and the individual tracks don't seem to add up harmonicly. EQing, as in giving each element its own space in the frequency spectrum will help solving part of the problem.

This is a really good point and its where I think much of the deadness is coming from. Problem is that I end up making really harsh Eq's. I try to pan things around to keep them out of each other's way for example I usually use one or two synths and put them at 10/2 o clock.

Another thing is the overall lack of details in the individual tracks. Once that high percussion pops in at 1:06 pretty much the rest of the track becomes a blur. Why? It has x times as much audible transients as everything else. Gets all my attention.

i dont use enough short range automation. There's plenty of 24 bar ramps to various parameters but very little in the way of say using an AHDSR to alter the characteristics of a pad as it rises and falls. Something as simple as that can transform instruments. I also have no velocity or keyfollowing which is just outlandish when I think about it -_-. The other point is that this kind

I'd also get rid of the reverb, it just adds to the drowning problem.

All of it on every instrument? That' s a little severe isn't it?

What i'd do is start adding punch to the drums. The kick would be easier to follow with additional higher harmonics. Those stuttered percussion would benefit from off-centered panning and or widening.

I need to invest in proper stereo imaging tools! Ableton live doesnt seem to have a stereo imager for some reason.

In case of doubt throw away everything that clutters the mix, start balancing with an EQ and a bit of panning. Subtle saturation is also a mighty tool to increase an elements audibility without actually making it louder. Plus it adds harmonics that break up that perfect digital sound a little.

How much would you recommend for say the main harmonic synth? Im using Ableton's onboard saturator

[Ronny Pries]

Thanks! There's alot of brilliant advice here.

You're welcome!

This is a really good point and its where I think much of the deadness is coming from. Problem is that I end up making really harsh Eq's. I try to pan things around to keep them out of each other's way for example I usually use one or two synths and put them at 10/2 o clock.

This is where good advice gets tough cause i can't see what you're doing there. What are you trying to achieve with harsh EQing? And what is harsh EQing by your means? I deal with very resonant filter boosts on single tracks all the time as an effect. But i run them through subtle saturation and medium to heavy compression to maintain mixability. F***ing important: watch your levels between plugins to avoid clipping by any means.

I can strongly recommend http://www.soundonsound.com/articles/In ... ecrets.php for all things mixing.

i dont use enough short range automation. There's plenty of 24 bar ramps to various parameters but very little in the way of say using an AHDSR to alter the characteristics of a pad as it rises and falls. Something as simple as that can transform instruments. I also have no velocity or keyfollowing which is just outlandish when I think about it -_-. The other point is that this kind

Well, let's tackle the mix for a moment and not deal with the hydra of sound design at the same time, shall we?

All of it on every instrument? That' s a little severe isn't it?

For the process of taking the mix to the scratchboard i'd switch it off and bring it back in when everything starts to work without it.

I need to invest in proper stereo imaging tools! Ableton live doesnt seem to have a stereo imager for some reason.

Nooo, stop it! Will you?! I can see what you're doing there. Throwing money on problems. Don't. Really. Don't! Ableton's stereo tools: chorus, flanger, phaser, reverb, frequency shifter, filter.... Aaaaaand: the panning knob.

A stereo imager btw is included with the Utility. As in stereo width control.

How much would you recommend for say the main harmonic synth? Im using Ableton's onboard saturator

Hard to say, would have to listen to it alone.

At the bottom line you're struggling with the ails of digital perfection imho. Been there, done that, too. I started producing inside the box at the dawn of VSTs. Had to go lengths to achieve the same sound i would need a minimal hardware setup for on the analog domain. And still not really getting there.

Adding a noise floor to my individual tracks helped a bit. Nowadays there's stuff like Waves NLS, Satson, VCC etc that add life to your sum. If you wanna spend money, go for one of those. Are you PC based? Make Variety of Sound plugins your new best friends. They help making mixing a more natural process and your life easier in that regard.

Hope this helps you a bit.

[lfm]

Last 10-15s I got some of that wow in that transistion - this is interesting feel - here it is what I waited 2 minutes for.

The rest - beginning till 2.15 felt like an intro that went nowhere - you were anticipating something coming but it never came. If it were with pictures that made a story it's another matter - felt more like film score supporting an action on film. The picture I get is classic warehouse where the hero is chasing the villon or something - music that support that.

The sources used really have no high content. These synths are artificial generators lacking parts and as mentioned panned around and being mono. Some spatial processor like Waves S1 or similar might help a bit, or a room reverb at least - but really what happend last 10-15s should be sooner and in there. It was just mono sounds panned in different places.

Full sounding mix = all frequencies represented

[thecontrolcentre]

Also ... it lacks "palpable energy" because it hasn't been mastered. Try adding some mastering compression and EQ (or give it to someone who knows what they're doing). Mastering won't make the mix more interesting, but it will sound more "pro".

I couldn't agree less and you're getting a very ugly message across with that statement. Which is: without mastering tracks will sound bad.

That's not what I was saying. I was referring to why there is a difference in perceived loudness (palpable energy) between the OP's track and "commercial" mixes. I also suggested having someone who knows what they're doing master it.

[Arglebargle]

Can anyone relate to the feeling that their mixes have a hollow space in them and that they lack the presence and dynamism of music they hear in commercial releases? Depth and mastering could be part of the solution but ive heard that same "deadness" in commercial tracks. Its a feeling that the music has taken on life and the sounds have a palpable energy. The entire stereofield also has this same intensity. Even the "silent regions" sort of hum inaudibly. I think that this is more complex than just mastering and depth. I think composition is definitely involved

Does anyone agree that this mix sounds a little lifeless?

There's no variation in your mix. It's the same riff all the way with a little variation in the beats. Also ... it lacks "palpable energy" because it hasn't been mastered. Try adding some mastering compression and EQ (or give it to someone who knows what they're doing). Mastering won't make the mix more interesting, but it will sound more "pro".

Im not sure why a repeating pattern is a bad thing. It was favoured by Alice Coltrane and Mccoy Tyner. Do you think this particular song actually needs harmonic change? If so that's interesting because my lecturer said the same thing lol

There's nothing about it that hooked me. The difference between a great and boring arrangement is hooks.

[chaosWyrM]

Can anyone relate to the feeling that their mixes have a hollow space in them and that they lack the presence and dynamism of music they hear in commercial releases? Depth and mastering could be part of the solution but ive heard that same "deadness" in commercial tracks. Its a feeling that the music has taken on life and the sounds have a palpable energy. The entire stereofield also has this same intensity. Even the "silent regions" sort of hum inaudibly. I think that this is more complex than just mastering and depth. I think composition is definitely involved

Does anyone agree that this mix sounds a little lifeless?

There's no variation in your mix. It's the same riff all the way with a little variation in the beats. Also ... it lacks "palpable energy" because it hasn't been mastered. Try adding some mastering compression and EQ (or give it to someone who knows what they're doing). Mastering won't make the mix more interesting, but it will sound more "pro".

Im not sure why a repeating pattern is a bad thing. It was favoured by Alice Coltrane and Mccoy Tyner. Do you think this particular song actually needs harmonic change? If so that's interesting because my lecturer said the same thing lol

There's nothing about it that hooked me. The difference between a great and boring arrangement is hooks.

well thats why skittles come in different flavors. maybe you need hooks to find things interesting...but not everyone does.

i really liked this track. i agree it does need some help with the sound (which is why they asked), and ronny pries has given some very good advice. so much so that i wont muddy the waters with my own opinions...which are almost exactly the same anyway.

for what its worth i think this track has a great deal of potential. a solid foundation that just needs a bit of work.

[Aleatoriac]

I actually like it and find nothing wrong with it.

Why do you feel it is empty? Were you wanting to make something else?

[Rah]

I like it too.

I'd agree that the mix is a bit of a muddy blur in places, and I'd definitely try and create a bit more contrast with many of the instruments, using EQ, compression and transient shaping to add sharpness and punch and/or separate things out better

the main chord figure does get a little boring to me. I like the ending because it brings something refreshing in

I think if you work on a more interesting arrangement, and maybe get a bit more movement, variation and modulation into it; more ebb and flow, because it feels a bit static once the main elements are set into their groove