Synth Effect vs external effect

VST, AU, AAX, CLAP, etc. Plugin Virtual Effects Discussion
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himalaya wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:28 am
chk071 wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:08 pm I don't know any synth which has effects which are on par with good dedicated effect plugins though.
I know many.

Take the old Alchemy1, it has/had reverb from Arts Acoustic. Now in version 2, it also has convolution reverb, so it's as good as the IRs supplied or the ones you feed into it.

The old Synth Squad synths had the great sounding Breverb.

MODO has great amp simulators.

Uhe Repro effects are top notch, with a vicious waveshaper that would make a superb standalone effect.

Strobe2/Cypher2 have amazing sounding Chorus (Amber Chorus), a Formant filter and various ring-mods plus some unique stuff like the PhaseModArray all of which are 'stand-alone' kind of quality.

The effects that come in Tone2 Electra are also great sounding. On par with standalone stuff (in fact I guess these effects come from the dedicated and excellent Warmverb)

And so on....

The days when effects in synths were an afterthought are largely long gone. Yes, there are still examples of 'weak' effects bundled in some synths or maybe effects that are simplified, but overall, I see some very good effects, definitely on par with dedicated plugins.
So, more or less one or two good effects per synth. How does that defeat the argument, though, that no synth has effects which are on par with good external effects? In the sum, they're not nearly as good. And, i also doubt that RePro's are as good as external effects. There are so good external reverbs out there, for example. And, i have never heard a phaser effect which is as good as some external phasers either. Also no delay which sounds as good as Replika XT. And many synth's onboard compressors outright SUCK. I'm sorry, but, that's just not my experience. You can always have the one or the other diamond in synth effects, but, the vast majority is rather mediocre, or even totally bad.

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I suspect dedicated vst effects are usually of a higher quality than those included in vst instruments, but there are some exceptions. Some companies will simply include versions of their dedicated effects within their synths like N.I. and Izotope. In that case though I still like the external effects if I have them as I like the workflow more personally. That's just me though.

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remember folks, synths have fx to make factory presets sound good, not to actually be of use in the real world :tu:

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I used like the original SampleTank , it's current iteration is not for me. I realized that my CPU was running high because of the built in FX ..the only way I could use ST 4 was to bypass them, but then that screws most presets. I would rather they for go the FX and let me choose my own.

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this is a really good topic actually, because i've been giving it a lot of thought too. i usually use external effects for everything and just turn off the internal effects, but my goodness these modern vsti's have killer reverbs! seriously good! and the sound is totally dependent on them. so i get it.

thing is todays music has nothing to do with music, it's all about mangling sound. so, it depends on what you like to do. are you playing an instrument that depends on internal effects? are you blending multiple synths to make your own sounds? are you just mangling sound? up to you.

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AnX wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:05 pm remember folks, synths have fx to make factory presets sound good, not to actually be of use in the real world :tu:
But the factory presets belong to the real world and are used by real people.
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design
3D/5D sound design since 2012

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chk071 wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:37 pm How does that defeat the argument, though, that no synth has effects which are on par with good external effects?
My reply defeats that argument by providing a non exhaustive list of several synths which have in-built effects that are on par with good external effects.
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design
3D/5D sound design since 2012

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Dasheesh wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:15 pm this is a really good topic actually, because i've been giving it a lot of thought too. i usually use external effects for everything and just turn off the internal effects, but my goodness these modern vsti's have killer reverbs! seriously good! and the sound is totally dependent on them. so i get it.

thing is todays music has nothing to do with music, it's all about mangling sound. so, it depends on what you like to do. are you playing an instrument that depends on internal effects? are you blending multiple synths to make your own sounds? are you just mangling sound? up to you.
Well said. Sometimes internal effects will be enough, and of great quality. Other times, external effects will be preferable. But like you've noted, some synths have amazing reverb effects from the likes of ArtsAcoutsic, Breverb, and others. Some others use convolution reverb so a reverb like that is as good as the IRs we feed it.
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design
3D/5D sound design since 2012

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himalaya wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:38 pm
chk071 wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:37 pm How does that defeat the argument, though, that no synth has effects which are on par with good external effects?
My reply defeats that argument by providing a non exhaustive list of several synths which have in-built effects that are on par with good external effects.
Well, i still disagree. Even the best synth internal effect wasn't as good as a great external effect. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. :)

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Have you used the ArtsAcoutsic reverb in Alchemy?
Or the Overloud reverb in Synth Squad?
Have you tried the Waveshaper in U-he Repro?
How about the stunning ensemble effects from Tone2 ElektraX (which actually do come from a good external effect. Can you spot the irony here?).
Cypher2's Amber Chorus, PhaseModArray, Amber Formants... ?
and so on...

what is exactly missing from these that makes them somehow 'less' than similar external effects?

Open your ears. Joyful sonorities await you. :D
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design
3D/5D sound design since 2012

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Apart from ElectraX, i haven't used any of those synths. I read that the ArtsAcoustic reverb is supposed to be nice (think i even demo'd it once, but, don't remember now...). Not sure how it holds up against the "crème de la crème", which i think comes from 2CAudio, Exponential Audio, or Eventide. I actually used some of the effects in ElectraX/2. They were OK, nothing special. Dunno about the ensemble effect (isn't that a "simple" unison effect?). Can't judge about the others. The synths i tried didn't have anything better than good external fx.

To be totally honest, i also didn't find the highly praised u-he onboard effects so great either. They're fine, maybe even good. But, surely not "great".

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Of course one can often find “superior“ sounding effects in dedicated separate VSTs, especially if you are willing to fork out more for one single effect, than a complete synth which happens to include a few itself.
But there are definetly some awesome effects in (soft) synths.
The aforementioned distortion unit of Bazille (probably also applies to Repro) is one of the best sounding distortion effects i have ever witnessed.
Diva's Chorus is declassing every other ITB Chorus i tried.
And their other effects are probably also pretty good, though i am also not that fond of the supposedly awesome sounding Colour Copy and Spring Reverb is also not my favorite effect.
And even if others might technically not be on the same level as high end effects plugins, doesn't mean that you can't get way more than just serviceable sounds out of them, some of them might even give unique results which could be a bit difficult to achieve in other ways.
The Machinedrum might have some of the shittiest sounding effects ever, but they are pretty unique and give great results if you're not expecting to send your H9000 into retirement with these, i'd love if someone put them into VST land
Last edited by FapFilter on Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The GAS is always greener on the other side!

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chk071 wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:03 pm Apart from ElectraX, i haven't used any of those synths.
Ok, so you are not really in a position to judge if these synths (that you haven't used) have inferior effects. How can you then disagree with me that they are no good and not on par with "good external effects'. It's not wise. The internet needs people to start commenting on what they know and have experienced. It's for everybody's benefit. :)


chk071 wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:03 pm I read that the ArtsAcoustic reverb is supposed to be nice (think i even demo'd it once, but, don't remember now...).
Ok. You have read about it.... now you need to start testing and listening to it yourself. In music, we use our ears (it's a novel idea, I know :D forgive for the tease :D )


chk071 wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:03 pm Not sure how it holds up against the "crème de la crème", which i think comes from 2CAudio, Exponential Audio, or Eventide.
We shouldn't worry about "crème de la crème" of external effects because this thread is not about "crème de la crème" of effects but about "good external effects". Right? :D Here:
chk071 wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:08 pm ...on par with good dedicated effect plugins though.

chk071 wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:08 pm To be totally honest, i also didn't find the highly praised u-he onboard effects so great either. They're fine, maybe even good. But, surely not "great".
So they may be good, but not great, but you said they need to be on par with what quality exactly: :D
chk071 wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:08 pm ...on par with good dedicated effect plugins though.
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design
3D/5D sound design since 2012

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FapFilter wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:12 pm
The aforementioned distortion unit of Bazille (probably also applies to Repro) is one of the best sounding distortion effects i have ever witnessed.
Isn't that so! It's a superb effect. Definitely on par in sound with similar external effects.
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design
3D/5D sound design since 2012

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himalaya wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:28 pm
chk071 wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:03 pm Apart from ElectraX, i haven't used any of those synths.
Ok, so you are not really in a position to judge if these synths (that you haven't used) have inferior effects. How can you then disagree with me that they are no good and not on par with "good external effects'.
Dunno. Are you always right? :) Obviously, i can only judge by the synths i have tried (which are plenty. Of course, i can't try every synth on the planet). Just like you can only judge by the synths YOU have tried. As you mentioned ArtsAcoustic reverb, i wonder how it stacks up to the 2C Audio, Exponential Audio, and Eventide reverbs. What i always read is that it's a popular reverb in Trance music (I think VPS Avenger also has it onboard), and, i also know that it's pretty old, which doesn't have to mean something. I just wonder if it's really up there with the top external reverbs.

What i also know is that this stuff is highly subjective. Your good enough may not be my good enough, and vice versa. So, i'd say we stop arguing, and admit that we might have different demands. I surely won't go down the "Rip apart post, quote single sentences, and disagree with every single word" road.

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