2CAudio Precedence | 1.5 | Move Out Of Flatland. Take Precedence.

[jens]

try Denis's notes:

tip: click on the circle and then you can use keyboard's arrow keys to change angle and distance. holding down shift key will trigger 'fine-tuning' mode. note: it might not work in some hosts.

Denis,
2CAudio

Oh, nice! That works flawlessly indeed - thanks!

[Andrew Souter]

Surely if this was built into Breeze it would be the definitive reverb

yes, absolutely. At least for "real instrument" use.

We thought about smashing them into one. Like a PB&J sandwich.

I suppose we are still thinking about it. But we sort of prefer to have Precedence separate and have our reverbs be "Precedence aware" and allow them to talk to each other. We want to be able to use Precedence with B2 and Aether also. And we want to be able to use P and verbs separately as well.

and if we were to make them into one, it gets quite complicated to manage this many verbs -- for us and for you. Breeze, Aether, B2, "PBJ", etc. Our thinking at the moment to keep them independent and preserve your investment and indeed enhance it with this kind of intra-plugin communication. We want everyone to own the Perfect Storm Bundle eventually. We're not shy about that. We think we can cover "All the space you need" with this product line: Precedence, Breeze 2, B2, Aether. And as we get to 2.0 for B2 and Aether they will get a little more differentiated so we have less questions about which one to use etc.

We like the Perfect Storm platform. We think this is a big enough container for all our (stereo) spatial ideas.

We do like surround also.

Another possibility is to keep Precedence as its own standalone product/plug-in, but also allow it ALSO to be an "unlock-able add-on module" in our verbs. So in Breeze 2.x for example you would enter a License for the Breeze part, and optionally another License (the one you just bought - NOT ANOTHER FEE - if you did) for Precedence. Then if you wanted to use Precedence and Breeze together you would just load Breeze and the Precedence GUI would be another page accessible within Breeze.

Pricing for Precedence would be the same. You would still have the ability to use Precedence separately, or with other third party verbs, or by itself etc. You would still have the ability to use Breeze without Precedence.

This would then obviously be less complicated for you to set up and is 100% certain to keep Precedence and Breeze parameters synced.

Feedback welcome...

[sqigls]

sounds good to me

[33tetragammon]

yeah sounds like a good idea!

[Andrew Souter]

Andrew,

I am getting SEVERE phase problems with stereo sources - upon loading the plug.

Am I the only one with this ?...

In Breeze? Example please. Screenshot of the preset and/or the preset.

Oh... sorry.

Wrong topic (but "linked" - so to speak )

It's in precedence.

No screenshot is needed. you load Precedence and you start hearing phasing.

"Phasing" like phaser/flanger phasing, i.e. modulating comb filtering, or Phasing meaning simply something like phase-inverion between L and R?

On what kind of sound?

if you click the "Variation Randomize" dice on the right, does it change?

[Andrew Souter]

also, you mention, "With stereo sources", does this mean, with something that is mono to start, you do not experience it?

Are you using Mid-Sid Expand/Collapse input mode and is it something other than 100%?

[Tp3]

"Phasing" like phaser/flanger phasing, i.e. modulating comb filtering ?

Yes.

also, you mention, "With stereo sources", does this mean, with something that is mono to start, you do not experience it?

Stereo.

I tried all sort of combinations, mono AND stereo input source... fiddled with the knobs - to no avail. I have something similar in my tool box (I bought Precedence for it's link abilities with Breeze2 - which I own) - but the other tool gave me no phase issues at all.

Are you using Mid-Sid Expand/Collapse input mode and is it something other than 100%?

Nope. drum machine straight into Precedence.

[aMUSEd]

I would prefer this to be integrated into the verbs

[Andrew Souter]

@Tp3 send an audio clip to us so we can take a listen. happy to check it out.

however, see next post:

[Andrew Souter]

FYI guys, I will be traveling (to LA) all day tomorrow and out of the office most of the day Tuesday and part of the day Wednesday. That's why i've tried to put in some good hours here to answer initial questions in the past two days. I'll answer support/info/sales emails of course, but forum presence will be limited.

I'll be back later in the week.

If you have a question be sure to check earlier pages also as there was some good info posted already.

[cturner]

Yes, it was directed at you and I disagree with you. I tried quite a few plugins in the past that were kind of similar but none of them gave me the same kind of "realistic space" sensation as Precedence. Could you give an example of what other plugin would be doing the same thing with just as good results?

(To stray off-topic for a moment, I do second your shout-out to IK for putting MS controls on practically all of their plugins. A hugely underrated feature there.)

I have some hesitance here because I'm mostly interested in the methodological implications of Precedence's use in mixing, rather than suggesting other things as equivalent.

I see the Precedence/Breeze combination as having three major components. The first is an integrated panner and gain control responding to the mouse cursor. You can hear this by itself by taking Precedence's Width down to 0, effectively shutting off the "spatial modulation". The second is--of course--the modulation itself. Finally, there is the link with Breeze 2.1 which coordinates the dry/wet mix and pre-delay with the implicit distance settings made in Precedence.

This last feature was worth looking at in some detail, and I made a chart which I share below. 2CAudio organized the reverb styles in their menu running from largest to smallest, or "Classic Low" to "Colored B". The table below lists the reverb styles, and in the far right column the approximate setting of pre-delay at distance 0.0 or "Dry" in (I presume) milliseconds. The far left column lists the Breeze Distance/Mix settings required to produce a 25ms pre-delay, and the middle column lists Mix settings to produce 50ms pre-delay. This was all eye-balled off Breeze's graph display, so I make no assertions about great accuracy.



So breaking things down into these three components and using the information garnered from the Precedence/Breeze "link" I made a test file, the URL of which is below. (~4.1Mb download) It sticks mostly to default settings, with the least amount of adjustment necessary to bring things into comparison.

http://vze26m98.net/kvr/Precedence%20Guitar-181014.zip

The file was produced in a 96khz Reaper session using AAS's String Studio "Electric Nylon" guitar to produce three notes, plus space for reverberance. So the first set of three constitute one version, and the second set of three another, as described below.

One version features Precedence/Breeze, with Precedence set at a 45 degree angle and 50.0 "Distance". In Breeze, I set the PD Link, 50.0 Mix and "Classic Med" reverb style.

The other version uses DMG TrackControl to provide the 45 degree angle and a gain setting matched to Precedence's 50.0. The "spatial modulation" was provided by Nugen's Stereoizer in its default setting. There are, however, a lot of plugs that provide pseudo-stereo. PSP Audio's Stereo Pack is another "natural" one I like, but even chorus and doubler plugs, like the Voxengo Chorus and Softube Fix Doubler can provide quite natural results if set appropriately. Finally, I used Exponential Audio's PhoenixVerb, using the default "Medium Hall" style, but set the pre-delay to 13ms after eye-balling the equivalent Breeze setting, and placed PhoenixVerb's mix at 50%.

Obviously, the two versions don't sound the same, and to some extent, that wasn't the goal. But, two questions for everyone: which is which, and which do you prefer?

[Andrew Souter]

...or here's a real guitar :

https://2caudio.com/sitecontent/product ... et-Dry.wav

dry at the end if you wish to experiment...

P is something like Angle 45deg an distance something around 50 or so if I remember correctly... and Breeze, nothing else.

[plexuss]

I've been using "spacializers" (that's what I call them) for quite awhile. It's almost impossible to get any consistency when it comes to depth of field and expecially height. I find the same thing with Precedence, although Precedence doesn't work with height. That is, these appear to be very system dependent in terms of what you hear exactly. So I condsider them approximations and my expectation that I can actually control the sound-stage is minimal. In short, they are fun to use but don't expect any consistency across systems in terms of projecting your intended sound-stage. On thing about Precedence is that it sounds better than other spacializers I've used that otherwise colour the tone and texture of the sound - Precedence does a better job of leaving things intact. YMMV

[XComposer]

Sorry, a banal question: when will the introductory price period end, please?

[MogwaiBoy]

I guess asking about mono-compatibility would be a silly thing to do?

Has anyone compared to Fieldler Audio 'Stage'?