2CAudio Breeze | 2.5 | Simple. Light. Pristine. Intelligently Adaptive.

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Effects discussion
jens
KVRAF
19705 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia

Post Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:11 am

It's simply a matter of preference. No point in arguing over this imo.

enCiphered
KVRian
585 posts since 13 Dec, 2016

Re: 2CAudio Breeze 2.1 | P-Link | Sub-Zero Suspend-On-Slience | Chameleon Color

Post Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:24 am

jens wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:11 am
It's simply a matter of preference. No point in arguing over this imo.
Exactly :tu:

Ploki
KVRian
981 posts since 17 Dec, 2009

Re: 2CAudio Breeze 2.1 | P-Link | Sub-Zero Suspend-On-Slience | Chameleon Color

Post Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:37 am

fwiw, there's nothing more you can accomplish with two faders than you can with a balancer and a gain after the balancer. :)

i prefer balancers because it's easier to automate when used as insert as opposed to two faders.

jens
KVRAF
19705 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia

Re: 2CAudio Breeze 2.1 | P-Link | Sub-Zero Suspend-On-Slience | Chameleon Color

Post Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:51 am

No, it's not the same at all. While personally I by far prefer the crossfade method myself, I can clearly see the advantage of the additive methode. If you want to hear exactly what you are currently adding, the crossfade.method won't help you much, as it replaces the amount of dry gain you are reducing by adding more wet-gain.

Both methods have their advantages and disadvantages and depending on the preferences of their manufacturers, some reverb have it this way and others the other way.

Why is it so hard to simply accept that others have other needs/requirements and ways of working? Why is their a need to try to persuade the other that his way of working is wrong? I don't get it. Same thing as with religion basically.. "you're praying to the wrong god!" - So what? How is that your business?


Just for the record: I am not directing this at anyone personally.

Ploki
KVRian
981 posts since 17 Dec, 2009

Re: 2CAudio Breeze 2.1 | P-Link | Sub-Zero Suspend-On-Slience | Chameleon Color

Post Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:33 am

depends on the implementation, but most balancers work in this manner: (and so does the 2C audio balancer)
50/50 dry/wet = 100% dry + 100% wet
by moving either to the left or to the right reduces the amount of the other.
You don't ADD anymore wet by going from 50% wet to 100% wet, you just remove dry.

So having balancer at 50/50 == 100% wet and 100% dry together... like having both faders at 0dB FS (at max) on a split control.
having balancer at 25%, you will have 100% dry and 50% wet.

it's like having dry at 0dB and wet at -12dB on a split control.

If you have wet at -24 dB and dry at -12dB, it's like having balancer at 25% and adding 12dB negative gain at the end.

So yes, it's exactly the same in terms of DSP, and with one smart control mapping you can make two faders behave like a balancer.
Also, with smart control, you can make (albeit a little more convoluted and annoying) balance+gain behave like two faders.

jens
KVRAF
19705 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia

Re: 2CAudio Breeze 2.1 | P-Link | Sub-Zero Suspend-On-Slience | Chameleon Color

Post Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:02 am

Oh, my bad then :oops: - so I remember it incorrectly - I thought the output-gain stayed more or less the same, regardless of the wet-dry setting.

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Andrew Souter
KVRAF
2584 posts since 12 Sep, 2008

Re: 2CAudio Breeze 2.1 | P-Link | Sub-Zero Suspend-On-Slience | Chameleon Color

Post Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:14 am

well, actually there are some enhancements to this topic in the next update.

1) we will make the P-Link mode more visually distinct than the normal/traditional mode

2) the mix/balance switch will have a better GUI object instead of just changing the label (this was a last minute easter-egg feature addition back a year ago, so it's GUI design and naming was perhaps not the most well thought out :wink: )

3) when using P-Link mode , the Mix label will say "Distance" instead of mix. it should also be noted that 50% "Distance" does NOT necessarily = 50% wet/dry mix. (i saw some comments earlier about worrying that 50% distance is "more verb than I usually use" etc, but 50% Distance does not necessarily mean an even balance of wet and dry signals. It is choose in a way as to make the distance range in P most useful IMHO.

4) The Gain slider in the normal/traditional mode controls the gain of the wet/dry mix, i.e. total/global gain. But! in the next update if you use P-Link mode this gain slider will be Wet Gain, only. This will allow you adjust the relative balance of the wet/dry more in case you do not like the automatic wet/dry balance created by Distance. And it has other benefits as you will see.

4b) there will be no way to adjust dry gain in P-Link mode. (other than indirectly by Distance). It is assumed you are using Precedence in this mode and that you have a Precedence-Breeze chain going on. Precedence has an Input Gain control and this will now therefore control the total gain for the P-B chain. Equivalently you could simply use your DAW mixer fader to do the same.

maybe it confuses matter by telling you what will be before you can see if for yourself... but it is relevant to the discussion I suppose. :tu: and happens to be something we just edited last week.

jbraner
KVRian
996 posts since 8 Jan, 2003

Re: 2CAudio Breeze 2.1 | P-Link | Sub-Zero Suspend-On-Slience | Chameleon Color

Post Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:20 am

Precedence has an Input Gain control and this will now therefore control the total gain for the P-B chain
So, maybe one day we'll have a "container" where we can put Precedence and Breeze in to - and see everything in one place ;)
(rather than treating them like two separate plugins)

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Andrew Souter
KVRAF
2584 posts since 12 Sep, 2008

Re: 2CAudio Breeze 2.1 | P-Link | Sub-Zero Suspend-On-Slience | Chameleon Color

Post Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:21 am

Ploki wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:33 am
depends on the implementation, but most balancers work in this manner: (and so does the 2C audio balancer)
50/50 dry/wet = 100% dry + 100% wet
by moving either to the left or to the right reduces the amount of the other.
You don't ADD anymore wet by going from 50% wet to 100% wet, you just remove dry.

So having balancer at 50/50 == 100% wet and 100% dry together... like having both faders at 0dB FS (at max) on a split control.
having balancer at 25%, you will have 100% dry and 50% wet.

it's like having dry at 0dB and wet at -12dB on a split control.

If you have wet at -24 dB and dry at -12dB, it's like having balancer at 25% and adding 12dB negative gain at the end.

So yes, it's exactly the same in terms of DSP, and with one smart control mapping you can make two faders behave like a balancer.
Also, with smart control, you can make (albeit a little more convoluted and annoying) balance+gain behave like two faders.


that's not quite correct. In the current/traditional/normal mode Mix uses sin/cos equal power blending:

wetGain = sin(pi/2 * mix)
dryGain = cos(pi/2 * mix)

or in dB:

wetGain = 20 * loq(sin(pi/2 * mix) , 10)
dryGain = 20 * log(cos(pi/2 * mix) , 10)

so at 50% we have:

wetGain = dryGain = sqrt(1/2) = 0.707 = -3dB

or:

Mix Wet dB Dry dB
0.000% -INF -0.00
12.50% -14.2 -0.17
25.00% -8.34 -0.69
37.50% -5.11 -1.60
50.00% -3.01 -3.01
62.50% -1.60 -5.11
75.00% -0.69 -8.34
87.50% -0.17 -14.2
100.0% -0.00 -INF


i suppose that is not really a secret. :wink:
Last edited by Andrew Souter on Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:46 am, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Andrew Souter
KVRAF
2584 posts since 12 Sep, 2008

Re: 2CAudio Breeze 2.1 | P-Link | Sub-Zero Suspend-On-Slience | Chameleon Color

Post Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:24 am

jbraner wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:20 am
Precedence has an Input Gain control and this will now therefore control the total gain for the P-B chain
So, maybe one day we'll have a "container" where we can put Precedence and Breeze in to - and see everything in one place ;)
(rather than treating them like two separate plugins)
I am confident you will see why we are choosing to do it this way soon...

jbraner
KVRian
996 posts since 8 Jan, 2003

Re: 2CAudio Breeze 2.1 | P-Link | Sub-Zero Suspend-On-Slience | Chameleon Color

Post Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:34 am

Andrew Souter wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:24 am
jbraner wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:20 am
Precedence has an Input Gain control and this will now therefore control the total gain for the P-B chain
So, maybe one day we'll have a "container" where we can put Precedence and Breeze in to - and see everything in one place ;)
(rather than treating them like two separate plugins)
I am confident you will see why we are choosing to do it this way soon...
So am I - I was just thinking out loud.
I have no doubt that I'm going to love it (since I do already) ;)

Ploki
KVRian
981 posts since 17 Dec, 2009

Re: 2CAudio Breeze 2.1 | P-Link | Sub-Zero Suspend-On-Slience | Chameleon Color

Post Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:39 am

ah, so there is gain beyond 50-50. well, sorry then :) was testing B2 not breeze and it seemed like it didn't add dry signal from 50% to 0

User avatar
Andrew Souter
KVRAF
2584 posts since 12 Sep, 2008

Re: 2CAudio Breeze 2.1 | P-Link | Sub-Zero Suspend-On-Slience | Chameleon Color

Post Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:05 am

random rant: sometimes I really wonder about the usefulness of using dB units in musical DSP... do musicians really like to think in terms of -6.02dB = 50% -12.04dB = 25% etc?

and when we do things like draw faders and meters in dB scale we typically warp the scale anyway to keep the slider/display range showing more useful values... (i.e. the dB scale ends up warped to something similar to the simple linear scale to make it actually useful) i.e. the difference between 0dB and -6dB is MUCH more important than the difference between -90dB and -96dB.

in some ways life would be more fun for everyone if people were used to simple linear gain scale in float/%.

i.e. 50 = 50% etc.

i'm not a huge fan of dB. I think it is a left-over from university EEs who where trained for aerospace etc where the useful ranges are much bigger than we deal with in music signal processing...

I also don't think nature thinks in terms of dB. (ok, nature DOES think in terms of additive systems vs multiplicative systems, and (natural)log is the transition between them, but I sort of envision it to be a linear operation in a warped/curved/multiplicative space, where the various magic ratios are still linear -- just linear in a log space. Like KS wave-form tuning topics... sorry to hurt your brain on a Sunday. :borg: )

end rant. :D

Ploki
KVRian
981 posts since 17 Dec, 2009

Re: 2CAudio Breeze 2.1 | P-Link | Sub-Zero Suspend-On-Slience | Chameleon Color

Post Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:19 am

i only started thinking in terms of linear signal scale when i started doing things in Max.

What you say for 0db and -6dB vs -90dB and -96dB is true.
However, 0dB vs -6dB and -6dB and -12dB - not so true.

The first being 1 and 0.5, the latter 0.5 and 0.25. Less intuitive. Try to explain to someone why 0.5 difference is the same as 0.25 difference. :D

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SJ_Digriz
KVRAF
5968 posts since 5 Jul, 2001 from Just about .... there

Re: 2CAudio Breeze 2.1 | P-Link | Sub-Zero Suspend-On-Slience | Chameleon Color

Post Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:39 am

I've had similar thoughts while working on vsti vs recording songs. What the math of the control does, doesn't really correlate to what I think I'm doing while using it. Knowing what happens under the lid can be a little disconcerting.

One problem is that we don't perceive linearly either. So, although you could reduce the scale to a meaningful set, you'd still have to figure out a set of maths that defined the interactions of domains.
If you have to ask, you can't afford the answer

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