what's your autodidactic focus in music?

[Hink]

my auto is a Kia not a Focus

mines rogue...kinda fits

[vurt]

You’ve heard music before. You know what it sounds like. The basic knowledge of how to employ the rules of timbre, melody, harmony, and rhythm have already been transferred to you, whether you like it or not. And you employ that theory, even if you are untrained and only capable of utilizing it at a rudimentary level.

Thats actually not true at all. Its a question that is constantly being challenged. When you hear music, how do you know its music? Why do you know its music? Even things that you hear that you dont like or arent into -- why do you inherently know its music when you hear it? Whether its hearing Iron Maiden for the first time or hearing sound scape artists for the first time -- you inherently know its music -- but the sounds dont have the qualities that you are used to hearing and accepting as "music".

this leads me to ask "then what is music?"
to know how we recognise it first we must understand what "it" is.

when you hear birds, what do you hear?
is it music? no, in actual fact its shouting and screaming about your hood and how good a lover you might be, so maybe hair rock or hiphop. but its territorial pissing.
to the "human listener " it is musical, so therefore, is music the act of listening or the act of making the sounds?

also, many people hear things and say "that's not music" to things they are not familiar with.
the already mentioned reich vocal sample performances for one.
but even death metal, as a kid i was forever told it wasnt music, here have some elvis.

[jancivil]

duplicate

[jancivil]

Oh yeah, there were no delay pedals then. Where would the money be for that if there were. Dude had a job and we got 1600 dollar moog 'cause it was hot. I set the price, 150, over the phone and they took a check on Saturday. I was stylin' if I could by a record with 3 bucks.
Yeah, no.

did you find the person it was stolen from? Or did you at least try to make amends? I mean you got very angry here when people were not as sympathetic about your gear getting stolen, you still try garner more sympathy with tales of your gear being stolen. So forgive me I dont follow the logic about bragging about buying stolen gear here

I don't follow the logic of you focusing on that or interpreting that bit that way except you want to attack me as a person.
How would one find the person it was stolen from? That is simply ludicrous, idiotic. I'm the police now?
NOR do I find it reasonable to derail the thread with it. So you're a hypocrite, yeah?

I was a teenager. I think it's a funny story, and not without its irony. We wouldn't have had that moog except for the serendipity of it, yet it's so laughingly wrong. You don't think I'm aware? You don't f**king know me. You lack the reflective capacity to not do this shit, so the chance of you knowing me is zero.

"you still try garner more sympathy with tales of your gear being stolen." I got pissed off at the_one_person, not "people" - ghettosynth whom I have a very colorful history with here, in fact - who went so far as to entirely mischaracterize what I did say, in order to paint as negative picture as he could. Just_like_you with this "still try garner more sympathy" as though it's an actual thing. It was a personal attack.



At the time, I was very upset. I had a lot of trials at that time and I lost everything - literally all of it, all my scores, all my gear, everything gone when I nearly died and went into hospital for 2 and half month and Skilled Nursing another 2 and half. Then, I'm inside - in a respite shelter - for the first time in 9 mos and the landlord has decided to do that with a 9 thousand dollar computer system.
Hey, man, I don't want ***anything*** from your ass, alright? Nor anyone. I'm not like that. THIS is not about that, it's about the context of me saying anything about ghettosynth's strenuous gaslighting of me at a fairly tender time.

-------------------------------------------------------------

This is funnily enough the only post in this exchange I can edit, so it's out of sequence. You actually made posts of mine inaccessible!
That's not immoderate at all, is it?
I decided to go do other things finally, but a couple of things need clarifying, from the plane of reality.
(Yeah, I'm offended, there are things you did in here I can't let stand.)

The point being that you dont know how many times I have acted on your behalf,

The once? Yeah, versus all the times you focused on me in that special way where you don't do with others.

and I will continue to do so and treat you like every other member, because that's how I do my job despite your constantly trying to make me look bad.

So you did the one thing which, as part of the job, you'd do for all members, and you're throwing that in my face?

The blame it on Hink thing is getting old Jan, you've played this card for 12 years and it has gotten you nowhere. It does nothing to me, you can never offend me.

So the reveal here, and thanks for this, is that since the very beginning (+ 3 months) you took yourself as above me on the forum?
You and I were just two members in 2007 and I disagreed with you with fair frequency, I guess. You've stated herein that you are 100% right in every instance of interaction since you snuck in as a moderator of an obscure sub-forum and then over time inflated yourself more and more, and now the story is I blamed you for... what? That's a little unhinged.

I'm holding you to the rules of the forum here, it's a personal attack off-topic and of course you state it's just an observation of fact; which doesn't make the fact of it being a personal attack off-topic vanish. That's bizarre.
I disagreed with you then, and my basic attitude towards you was formed, before you were any moderator (but sure acted like it, constantly). I never liked you. I guarantee you, based in personal messages to me then, people with the same perspective, I am far from alone here.

And when you state I'm "bragging" about something, you don't know that, it's not an observation, it's your judgement of what I said, and it is simply not accurate regarding my actual feelings about it. This is not how you treat people, unless you're a bully. I don't fall for it.

It does nothing to you? You're flat lying, we can see what it does to you, you have major beef with me for... 12 yrs? Enough to lie and distort strenuously:

you threw a little tantrum when I said a post of your was excessive yet you cruise around this forum picking fights just so you can tell people you're putting them you on your ignore list.

"tantrum" is your perception, for instance I could color this entire thrust of yours as deranged; I would not, being more reason-oriented, later say I was just stating a fact. You're holding a grudge behind one post (clearly offended) and coloring it with this other distorted (slanderous) account of my actions elsewhere as though to JUSTIFY THIS PERSONAL ATTACK AS WARRANTED. The other day I went off a bit on someone, who it could be said picked a fight with me (which I hold a grudge against because of a series of jumping on my case and distorting points like he had to dominate me, which I don't tend to tolerate: ebow or elbow or whatever it is) in the midst of CONSTANT personal attacks on ol' wags there in the 'no excuses' thread where you_had_not_done_your_job to moderate. I guess when you don't really dig somebody, attacks can go on all day long. How long did you take to moderate Karma_tba in that debacle? BTFW, he picked a fight with me years ago, 2015 or like that. What did I do, mute and never seek any post out by him. I went off once in music theory seeing some really bad shit in quotes. And I was right to. You were asleep at the wheel. I smelled the shit on the Forum Narcissus, called it out, and eventually the thing blew up. You failed to do your job for days there, the_most_flagrant flame job conceivable, and NADA.

You as the boss of me never happens in real life, it's bizarro world. For one thing, you're just not leadership material. Typically leaders have it thrust upon them; you're the guy that becomes a cop in order to have authority. You don't snow us with these acts you put on. You're sneaky, tho

AFAIC you found a way to top the rest of the forum having positioned yourself as moderator. Let's go back to the beginning, you and me, since you like this 12 yrs crap: you liked to tell me how to be; I would do a fairly normal 'RTFM' with no great color and you would tell me how to be. No, that doesn't work for me. nor does you *playing the [Jan] card* today. You serially distort, and lie, and compounding that beat your chest like you're the boss around here, and I see you. I know the type. I don't respect it.

Now you can retaliate any way you like and afaic simply prove my point.

3 edits to reduce space where the quotes resulted in bizarrely wrong spacing afterwards. sheesh

[jancivil]

And I'm not real happy about your gaslighting of me here. Derail an interesting thread to do a personal attack. (while distorting facts to do it) What a great model you are for the forum, like following the basic rules and spirit of a collegial forum supposedly.

[Hink]

1. this is not a personal attack it is an observation, and a factual one. I have never once made a personal attack against you but endured many. Obviously you dont know the difference.
2. Before you accuse me of derailing, you need to stop derailing with your abusiveness.
3. The blame it on Hink thing is getting old Jan, you've played this card for 12 years and it has gotten you nowhere. It does nothing to me, you can never offend me.
4. You also made the point about being a thief 3 months before you cried about your stuff being stolen, for the record I have zero respect for thieves, as should everyone.

BTW, I'm not playing anymore so get use to it...you threw a little tantrum when I said a post of your was excessive yet you cruise around this forum picking fights just so you can tell people you're putting them you on your ignore list. Jan I'm tired of cleaning up after these episodes of yours...it's not me, it's never been me, it's always been you and you're not gonna bully anyone as long as I have a say...so go throw another tantrum...I dont care...but I am tired of your hypocrisy, lies, and bs.

And before you attack me as a mod which you have been doing since I started the diy forum simply because YOU CANT PUT ME ON IGNORE (so unfortunate is the ignore list) let me just say that at least I put in a lot of time to improve the experience here.

[Hink]

oh look another failed attack on me without any merit....facts are not gaslighting...and it's factual.

It was not in my nature to be particularly obedient and starting around the onset of puberty I noticed very sharply that the authority figures around me had more problems probably than even I, and were most of them not very intelligent.

This overarching, overconfident statement is just some bullshit. What is it supposed to prove. Are you not one of the Good Germans, as well? WTF.

There is a film 'MANHUNTER' about figuring out who the Unabomber was and catching him.
One of the things Kaczinski said to the FBI agent who caught him stuck with the agent, in this story. It regarded obeying a red light when there was no traffic. I have never done that. I made my living disregarding traffic lights and stop signs, in fact if you did you were going to get significantly less done in your day and not be among the dispatcher's favorite messengers. I loved it. That is my nature. My nature is independent and suspicious. I'm not hyper vigilant or even very vigilant but I do not trust authority because it's authority and again this goes back to the 7th grade. I was a meek child but I barely made it into this world and I was quite sickly. And I was kind of shy of people.

I'm not much of a consumer. I'd prefer not to buy but take. And, when I was a heroin addict I made my living doing one sort of crime or another. I am vigilant enough to have never gone to prison. Fvck all y'all anyway, at the end of the day we all die alone.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=498795&p=6999817#p6998784
not past tense, present on 1/30/18...cant be more accurate than right from your on words

Edit

Hey, man, I don't want ***anything*** from your ass, alright?

this needs too be addressed to then I'm done

the beginning of this year you had an issue in the sell buy forum, I spent days dealing with it, the poster put you personal info in the feedback thread (with your birth name, something you do to me often...you post my given name with never having my permission) and I was quick to intercept it and delete it. That poster went on to hassle me here on kvr threatening me with lawsuits for protecting you (I have messages saved) and I even got a long harassing message on my personal soundcloud.

The point being that you dont know how many times I have acted on your behalf, and I will continue to do so and treat you like every other member, because that's how I do my job despite your constantly trying to make me look bad.

[jancivil]

First of all, I was pissed off about the landlady telling me, after a promise they would keep it (not taking up much space in a closet) and now she tells me they threw it out. It's not a very believable story. ghettosynth told a story about it that wasn't true, that I can't sue as though I should look stupid for something that I never said, and went from there. I didn't receive that happily. It wasn't "people" doing it.

As to gaslighting, there it is again, it's me derailing it. You put something to me - in public - which I responded to. The topic became derailed when you had at me for my hypocrisy, taking whatever you needed to out of context for it.
Your perception/opinion of me telling the story as "bragging" is not "facts". It's gaslighting to tell another person their thoughts or intentions. LOOK IT UP.
That I would post what I was experiencing for you, because you don't like or respect me as a person, was "you still try garner more sympathy with tales of your gear being stolen"/sic. It was a thing at the time and, stupidly apparently, I posted it, without the proper filter. I don't know it WAS stolen and so I didn't state in the affirmative or other as a supposition. So several things about your account of it exceed factuality. Again, telling a person what their intent was is gaslighting. You can never own it, though, that's quite clear. You're righteous old Hink in every possible case. "it's not me, it's never been me, it's always been you." Yeah, life is like that, sure it is. That's just hilarious. That's so incredibly immature. The whole thing, the whole stupid rant.
JFC.

On occasion, I find some people post such absolute shit I call it how I see it. You need to paint as extreme a picture as possible, unresponsive to what was said, in order to come across as 100% right to yourself. It's really not even remotely reasonable. And I don't have to take shit off of you just because you're moderator.
It means very little when you derail a thread to attack a person.

As to me stealing, look at Hierarchy of Needs. EG: FOOD. I should never have been candid about my life or be afraid of your quick & glib judgement? Sure. I can't respect you either, with your serial thoughtlessness and bullshit and projection.

[telecode]

Thats actually not true at all.

In this thread it is! We autodidacts are free to define music untruthfully. I find when an arrangement of pitch, timbre, melody, rhythm, etc evokes emotion, voilà c'est la musique! For example, I like Steve Reich's compositions (eg Different Trains) that use melodic speech and other recordings. He actually performed those sounds live using a Casio FZ-1 & I do similar.

I am a pretty big Reich fan and he's a good example. But his music does contain elements that can be considered known components of Western music aesthetics. But things like certain types of throat singing . You know its music when you hear it but it's totally off the radar as far as why is your brain automatically understanding that is music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWN36wBKFBM

[telecode]

You’ve heard music before. You know what it sounds like. The basic knowledge of how to employ the rules of timbre, melody, harmony, and rhythm have already been transferred to you, whether you like it or not. And you employ that theory, even if you are untrained and only capable of utilizing it at a rudimentary level.

Thats actually not true at all. Its a question that is constantly being challenged. When you hear music, how do you know its music? Why do you know its music? Even things that you hear that you dont like or arent into -- why do you inherently know its music when you hear it? Whether its hearing Iron Maiden for the first time or hearing sound scape artists for the first time -- you inherently know its music -- but the sounds dont have the qualities that you are used to hearing and accepting as "music".

this leads me to ask "then what is music?"
to know how we recognise it first we must understand what "it" is.

when you hear birds, what do you hear?
is it music? no, in actual fact its shouting and screaming about your hood and how good a lover you might be, so maybe hair rock or hiphop. but its territorial pissing.
to the "human listener " it is musical, so therefore, is music the act of listening or the act of making the sounds?

also, many people hear things and say "that's not music" to things they are not familiar with.
the already mentioned reich vocal sample performances for one.
but even death metal, as a kid i was forever told it wasnt music, here have some elvis.

A true story. long time ago in my musical discovery as i was leaving the pop music of my teenage years, i became a huge Ry Cooder fan and started collecting all his LPs. So I travel to my aunts place and pickup an import and bring it over to her place to play the a new LP I got and she freaks out saying she can't believe i spent money on that and how is it possible that companies are selling recordings of people that can barely play guitar. (in her defense, she was your regular run on the mill Boney M/ABBA/Bee Gee's babe from the 70s and knew very little about American folk music or of nuances of what kind of blues music Blind WIllie Johnson was. But even though it was not her type of music and she though it was pathetic, she did somehow comprehend that it was music of some sort. Now was that because it was contained within an LP (but then again, how do you explain spoken word records?) or whether she was hearing something that made her brain automatically make a connection that she was hearing something that is supposed to be music.

Back to the OPs approach to making music and refusing to tread trodden territory of what has been done before -- it makes for an interesting approach and it "could" lead to new unexplored territory in music. But as I said, it needs to have a component of "value" to the listener. Its sort of like white WASP-y middle and high income folks who become fans and aficionados of black American folk music. They are getting some sort of value when they experience music that is culturally and socially very far removed from who they are as people. Logically they should not be able to relate to it because its racially and textually far removed from what they should understand -- but they are drawn to it.

[telecode]

And I'm not real happy about your gaslighting of me here

You derailing another thread babe. You should be able to probably contribute something useful to the OP who wants to take a stab at doing his music "a la commando" style.

[jancivil]

It was not in my nature to be particularly obedient and starting around the onset of puberty I noticed very sharply that the authority figures around me had more problems probably than even I, and were most of them not very intelligent.

This overarching, overconfident statement is just some bullshit. What is it supposed to prove. Are you not one of the Good Germans, as well? WTF.

There is a film 'MANHUNTER' about figuring out who the Unabomber was and catching him.
One of the things Kaczinski said to the FBI agent who caught him stuck with the agent, in this story. It regarded obeying a red light when there was no traffic. I have never done that. I made my living disregarding traffic lights and stop signs, in fact if you did you were going to get significantly less done in your day and not be among the dispatcher's favorite messengers. I loved it. That is my nature. My nature is independent and suspicious. I'm not hyper vigilant or even very vigilant but I do not trust authority because it's authority and again this goes back to the 7th grade. I was a meek child but I barely made it into this world and I was quite sickly. And I was kind of shy of people.

I'm not much of a consumer. I'd prefer not to buy but take. And, when I was a heroin addict I made my living doing one sort of crime or another. I am vigilant enough to have never gone to prison. Fvck all y'all anyway, at the end of the day we all die alone.

I guess you lack the basic literacy or education not to imagine "I'd prefer not to buy but take" as anything but a strictly literal statement as to all possible actions? Out of all context. It's rhetoric. It's rather high-flying rhetoric. I find the notion of sitting for a red light where there is no traffic pathetic and ludicrous. That's the context for both statements. What if it's broken and never turns? Are ya going to just wait indefinitely? These rules exist to keep order. It's a reasonable request, wait your turn because it's otherwise possibly dangerous for all. When there's no traffic, it's a rule for rules' sake, and you're obeying something with no actual point other than it's a rule. Yeah, so that isn't me. I don't have a happy picture of the person who thinks we all must do.

Friend of mine used to like to visit Germany, frequently. We're in a philosophical place here so I don't mind.
Told a story about this, one night a group, him and some locals are walking, it's like 3am. They come to an intersection, a red light and ___ (a bike messenger) keeps walking, because there is no traffic. As a group: "IST DU FARBENBLIND?!"
It's a funny story to us. If you don't get it, too bad, why would I care exactly.

A story about a heroin addict doing crimes behind it... a person candid about that - just to amplify the point, that there's context to doing things which are unlawful - that's just something to JUDGE, isn't it. It's a pathetic story, literally (as per the root pathos); which is true of every person who's been there or is there now, it isn't unique nor does it say more than it says... but no. Don't use your imagination or call upon empathy, after all you're posting this as an argument against the person who found your attack disagreeable, *lacking the context* of the statement. You'd call this me picking a fight, even, because I used some color, 'overconfident'.

So, what else... yeah, let's go to HPC territory, I don't even care after this. When a system makes it impossible for some people to both eat and pay rent, some people actually act on their own behalf in order to eat. Hierarchy of Needs, and my need to present a false sense of reality to avoid this glib judgemental whole trip is not in there, however eating surely is. I paid for all my software and for my computer, tho.

[jancivil]

"with your birth name, something you do to me often."
I only know because you have done here, many times. And now you can't even imagine the disconnect between that, as though an offense, and stating in public I'm not using my birth name. Should be astonishing but somehow isn't.

To be sure, I have lived a very unruly life with a very cracked path. There are so many things I'm not proud of but I try to maintain a sense of humor about it, a sense of the absurd.

I wouldn't use your posting about your trauma against you trying to make you a bad person off topic.

[Hink]

i have an audience of 1 who i aim to please.
hes always wasted though so fairly easy to please.
it's just about enjoying the moment, the vibrations and the colours.

+1, I just love playing guitar...it's been there to see me through the great and the horrible points in my life plus everything in between for 48 years. It isn't what I do, it's a part of who I am.

[vurt]

A true story. long time ago in my musical discovery as i was leaving the pop music of my teenage years, i became a huge Ry Cooder fan and started collecting all his LPs. So I travel to my aunts place and pickup an import and bring it over to her place to play the a new LP I got and she freaks out saying she can't believe i spent money on that and how is it possible that companies are selling recordings of people that can barely play guitar. (in her defense, she was your regular run on the mill Boney M/ABBA/Bee Gee's babe from the 70s and knew very little about American folk music or of nuances of what kind of blues music Blind WIllie Johnson was. But even though it was not her type of music and she though it was pathetic, she did somehow comprehend that it was music of some sort. Now was that because it was contained within an LP (but then again, how do you explain spoken word records?) or whether she was hearing something that made her brain automatically make a connection that she was hearing something that is supposed to be music.

id argue ry cooder is fairly obviously music, its a guy singing and playing a guitar.
one might argue, badly, but still pretty much anyone would say "well its someone trying to play music" at the least.

take something like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HAg7D_nYow

would it be so obvious?

also, i suggested birds, to remove the "recorded medium" precisely because, i do think to some extent, some people see a record and therefore will expect music.
playing the above (which i find to be a good record to get rid of people when ive had enough) can often bring a look of confusion on peoples faces.
even people who like to think they have "wide open tastes" because they like metal and that one jazz record