Have you ever had to "motivate" the worthwhileness of musical DSP? How do you do it?

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Have you ever had to "motivate" the worthwhileness of musical DSP? How do you do it?

Reason:

Some people view that "art" or music is "not very important", since it's not needed for survival, it doesn't cure illnesses etc. That it seems "less important" compared to some other "supposedly 'more substantial'" endeavors.

So how do you go past this kind of criticism?

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I tend to view that:

Yes art is somewhat pointless.

But it has demonstrateable mental and physical effects. Thus it can fulfill "other parts" of humans, than direct productive work. Humans may also need leisure, recreation, so that's what music and musical gear fulfills.

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very interesting question. i have observed in myself that i tend to find math totally fascinating when it can be used for artistic purposes - such as in musical dsp but also image processing, computer graphics, etc. it is so satisfying, when you have figured out and implemented some complicated, mathsy algorithm, have it up and running and it produces cool, artsy stuff. i still find math moderately interesting, when it can be used to solve scientific and technological problems(*) - but much less so than when it comes to art, even though i would totally agree that these latter purposes are far more important for human progress. and yes - i often asked myself, why i feel that way. i have not found an answer yet

(*) oh - and then there is, of course, math for its own sake - as mathematicians do. i would find it really hard to motivate myself doing that. ...unless - maybe - i feel like i have a really cool idea (like i once thought, i've found a way to divide by zero - which - predictably - didn't work out in the end :hihi:)
My website: rs-met.com, My presences on: YouTube, GitHub, Facebook

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My problem is that I would definitely work for the aesthetic aspect of musical DSP.

However, from a rational point of view, I still see it as somewhat "trivial" endeavor compared to building space ships or something.

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In a grand scheme of things, art is also important to survival, it motivates activity.
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Aleksey Vaneev wrote: Fri May 24, 2019 10:52 am In a grand scheme of things, art is also important to survival, it motivates activity.
What you mean?

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soundmodel wrote: Fri May 24, 2019 12:06 pm
Aleksey Vaneev wrote: Fri May 24, 2019 10:52 am In a grand scheme of things, art is also important to survival, it motivates activity.
What you mean?
Art motivates activity, creativity.
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Music and art are sometimes a freedom from survival. Isn't it important? I think, we need to be free from it from time to time. Appreciating what is needed for survival only we make our life narrower than it can be.

Life isn't a survival.

EDIT: We have to survive. But life is more than this. Fun, creativity, curiosity, etc., etc., etc.

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lobanov wrote: Fri May 24, 2019 1:07 pm Music and art are sometimes a freedom from survival. Isn't it important? I think, we need to be free from it from time to time. Appreciating what is needed for survival only we make our life narrower than it can be.

Life isn't a survival.

EDIT: We have to survive. But life is more than this. Fun, creativity, curiosity, etc., etc., etc.
However, I would question the subjectivity of "narrower". If someone thinks art is not very important, then your idea of "narrowness" would not apply.

You find music to "broaden it", not everyone may.

I find music to broaden it, but I'm concerned about "objective value" in which music/art fairs not that well I find. It's "a nice thing to have", but we can do without it.

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oddly, the word art means existence, life is a subset of existence, not the other way around. procedure (not necessarily alive), can explore existence. existence is a subset of boring arguments, which have more to do with life than process. you have a finite span to acquaint yourself with art/existence, using your life. instead, why do peopl euse art to acquaint themselves more with life, because then they can buy more canned products.

"objective envaluation" you want epistemological solipsism not audio dsp. and a bag of weed. maybe a whole different culture. that would take a different incarnation, since you're already concerned about "survival". its a losers game, you keep nothing, nobody cares for art, and you're supposed to get as much shit as you can.

that's bad breath, but no one else can tell can they.
you come and go, you come and go. amitabha neither a follower nor a leader be tagore "where roads are made i lose my way" where there is certainty, consideration is absent.

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soundmodel wrote: Fri May 24, 2019 6:21 am Some people view that "art" or music is "not very important", since it's not needed for survival, it doesn't cure illnesses etc. That it seems "less important" compared to some other "supposedly 'more substantial'" endeavors.
There is a flaw in the question itself. Survival is not important as well, at least not on an individual level...
Look at playing kids, no matter if human or animal kids. They all play for fun. If you look at it from a broader level, they train their skills.
Creativity is the most important skill humans have. Its necessary in the moment old solutions don’t work anymore in a changing world. Art is creating surprises and teaches us about the inner workings of the physical and spiritual world. Without art there would be no reason to survive at all...
Art is what makes sense in life. I feel sorry for those, who cannot see that art is the most important activity of humankind. If they don’t understand, ask them if they can feel it. There is understanding beyond rational understanding.
Survival is just the part of life which hinders us creating art. Nowadays that part needs very little effort... Better use the rest of your time for joyful activities...
Also there is art for arts sake, and you can do any activity in a creative manner. There is a reason why craftsmen are also called artisan...

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soundmodel wrote: Fri May 24, 2019 1:26 pm
lobanov wrote: Fri May 24, 2019 1:07 pm Music and art are sometimes a freedom from survival. Isn't it important? I think, we need to be free from it from time to time. Appreciating what is needed for survival only we make our life narrower than it can be.

Life isn't a survival.

EDIT: We have to survive. But life is more than this. Fun, creativity, curiosity, etc., etc., etc.
However, I would question the subjectivity of "narrower". If someone thinks art is not very important, then your idea of "narrowness" would not apply.

You find music to "broaden it", not everyone may.

I find music to broaden it, but I'm concerned about "objective value" in which music/art fairs not that well I find. It's "a nice thing to have", but we can do without it.
Why do you think about this particular opinion ("music isn't important")? Why it's so important for you? Why do you think that this opinion is objective? Is it universal? I don't want for you to answer me, make it clear for yourself.

Why somebody's joy isn't objective for you?

There is no opinion that could be of value itself. Get different opinions, sum them, you'll see the whole picture. If there are two human beings who provide value for music or art, music and art have the objective value. Music or art don't have to be valuable for everyone. May be, there is nothing that have to be valuable for everyone. Why do you search for an universal value of musical DSP and music? THIS isn't important :hihi:

But I see the "objective value" too.
1. Riches and divercity of human existence are a universal value. Everyone can find his place and something that can make his life richer and broader (if he needs it). Music, art, musical DSP are a tiny part of it. Without them our existence (one of all the people, of humanity) becomes narrower. It's not important that somebody doesn't need it. Somebody else does.
2. There is a market, and musical DSP helps programmers (and their families) to survive. There are professional musicians who use programs and plugins and make money with them to survive (buy food, clothes, pay bills etc.) Is it sufficient? I'm sure, yes. They pay, so the baker, the phisician etc. get their money (and they pay to somebody too). It's not about music and art, it's about survival.
(But I think that in these cases music/art and survival coexist.)

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lobanov wrote: Fri May 24, 2019 1:07 pm But I see the "objective value" too.
1. Riches and divercity of human existence are a universal value. Everyone can find his place and something that can make his life richer and broader (if he needs it). Music, art, musical DSP are a tiny part of it. Without them our existence (one of all the people, of humanity) becomes narrower. It's not important that somebody doesn't need it. Somebody else does.
2. There is a market, and musical DSP helps programmers (and their families) to survive. There are professional musicians who use programs and plugins and make money with them to survive (buy food, clothes, pay bills etc.) Is it sufficient? I'm sure, yes. They pay, so the baker, the phisician etc. get their money (and they pay to somebody too). It's not about music and art, it's about survival.
(But I think that in these cases music/art and survival coexist.)
Then I think that art may not have to be subjected to economics. Rather, something that's enjoyed should be given to enjoy, rather than benefit from it. I think making a living doing useless stuff compared to doing useless is a selfish act. It doesn't matter, whether it survives in the economy. Since the moral decision is made "prior to" deciding to produce music. This is why it's a selfish act, because one goes to make music, rather than something more significant.

And since it expects others to do the lifting that one doesn't bother.

I think artists and aestheticians should feel guilty about being too "pleasure-seeking".

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soundmodel wrote: Fri May 24, 2019 4:16 pm
lobanov wrote: Fri May 24, 2019 1:07 pm But I see the "objective value" too.
1. Riches and divercity of human existence are a universal value. Everyone can find his place and something that can make his life richer and broader (if he needs it). Music, art, musical DSP are a tiny part of it. Without them our existence (one of all the people, of humanity) becomes narrower. It's not important that somebody doesn't need it. Somebody else does.
2. There is a market, and musical DSP helps programmers (and their families) to survive. There are professional musicians who use programs and plugins and make money with them to survive (buy food, clothes, pay bills etc.) Is it sufficient? I'm sure, yes. They pay, so the baker, the phisician etc. get their money (and they pay to somebody too). It's not about music and art, it's about survival.
(But I think that in these cases music/art and survival coexist.)
Then I think that art may not have to be subjected to economics. Rather, something that's enjoyed should be given to enjoy, rather than benefit from it. I think making a living doing useless stuff compared to doing useless is a selfish act. It doesn't matter, whether it survives in the economy. Since the moral decision is made "prior to" deciding to produce music. This is why it's a selfish act, because one goes to make music, rather than something more significant.

And since it expects others to do the lifting that one doesn't bother.

I think artists and aestheticians should feel guilty about being too "pleasure-seeking".
You've said about music business. Yes, such a thing exists. But I could list many brilliant musicians who play (played) or compose (composed) great music and make their living by it. Bach, Mozart. Many, many great artists. Making living by music isn't equal to making useless stuff for money.

Economics in our world is our survival. Without money you'll become homeless and die of starvation. How about music? You're dead. Play us guitar, please.

One really great poet said: "One can't sell an inspiration, but one can sell a manuscript". (He partly made living by poetry. But he died without getting clear of debts.)

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Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Casual art such as vst plugins tends to be valued by the higher end of the pyramid, where needs are already met the most, and boredom is the biggest issue. It can however be an expression at any level, ie. a homeless man drawing a sandwich in the dirt amid starvation. It can even be expressed in warfare in more subtle or dramatic ways, like wearing an ear necklace as a keep sake for victories won, etc.
SLH - Yes, I am a woman, deal with it.

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