Open303 - open source 303 emulation project - collaborators wanted
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- Banned
- 106 posts since 21 Nov, 2010
It's a sample being triggered, yes, with startoffset to get to the point of cutoff where I wanted. I just wanted to zoom in on an area where I needed that extra "hardness" in the filter.
I listened to your sound aswell. Is that kunn's filter, with the nonlinearities, with hp in the feedback path?
The dynamics of an overdriven transistor, looks very similar to a (simple onepole) feedback compressor. The effect I was after though, may be related to leakage, or other phenomena more though.
I listened to your sound aswell. Is that kunn's filter, with the nonlinearities, with hp in the feedback path?
The dynamics of an overdriven transistor, looks very similar to a (simple onepole) feedback compressor. The effect I was after though, may be related to leakage, or other phenomena more though.
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- Banned
- 106 posts since 21 Nov, 2010
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- Banned
- 106 posts since 21 Nov, 2010
Just out of curiosity, why so many tanh's in Kunns filter? From what I understand of transistors, (this is diode, but connected to work in a similar way?) (Btw some places I read that the 303 uses transistors in the filters aswell..??)
Conceptually, you need a control voltage (?) for the feedback, how's this done. Would that result in tanh(buf*amount), is that why there's so many of them(?).
Each places where there is some multiplication, results in nonlinear distortion, depending on the transistor/diode.
So, how many transistors for a one pole? two? three?
So, for instance, a tanh for each transistor.
buf = tanh(buf * (1-cut)) + tanh(in * cut)
Where's the plussing going on, inside a transistor?
Arg, this is turning to gibberish. Anyone who feel like correcting it is very welcome.
Conceptually, you need a control voltage (?) for the feedback, how's this done. Would that result in tanh(buf*amount), is that why there's so many of them(?).
Each places where there is some multiplication, results in nonlinear distortion, depending on the transistor/diode.
So, how many transistors for a one pole? two? three?
So, for instance, a tanh for each transistor.
buf = tanh(buf * (1-cut)) + tanh(in * cut)
Where's the plussing going on, inside a transistor?
Arg, this is turning to gibberish. Anyone who feel like correcting it is very welcome.
- KVRAF
- 2554 posts since 4 Sep, 2006 from 127.0.0.1
well, the 303 filter is a diode ladder, but it uses transistors arranged to work like diodes
you don't need all the tanh() on each stage
just one nonlinearity on the feedback does the job quite well
you don't need all the tanh() on each stage
just one nonlinearity on the feedback does the job quite well
It doesn't matter how it sounds..
..as long as it has BASS and it's LOUD!
irc.libera.chat >>> #kvr
..as long as it has BASS and it's LOUD!
irc.libera.chat >>> #kvr
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- Banned
- 106 posts since 21 Nov, 2010
You know if you want to improve your 303, some think a "nobassloss" tweak/mod is good. And particulary if you are doing resonance tuning, you don't unessecarily attenuate the filter.
This can be done by in - ((buf4 - in) * res), instead of in - (buf4 * res).
This can be done by in - ((buf4 - in) * res), instead of in - (buf4 * res).
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- Banned
- 106 posts since 21 Nov, 2010
I am very pleased with the sound of my filter, which is now a generic filter, with a "nobassloss" tweak, and clipping in the feedback path.
I think I am stopping there.
With an approximate accent feature, it sounds like this: http://www.paradoxuncreated.com/tmp/nobassloss.wav
The "nobassloss" tweak removes the attenuation from resonance tuning, and makes a completely perfect sweep over the frequency range, also due to the clipping in the feedback path.
Peace.
I think I am stopping there.
With an approximate accent feature, it sounds like this: http://www.paradoxuncreated.com/tmp/nobassloss.wav
The "nobassloss" tweak removes the attenuation from resonance tuning, and makes a completely perfect sweep over the frequency range, also due to the clipping in the feedback path.
Peace.
- KVRAF
- 2554 posts since 4 Sep, 2006 from 127.0.0.1
what's this "nobassloss" thing you're talking about?
It doesn't matter how it sounds..
..as long as it has BASS and it's LOUD!
irc.libera.chat >>> #kvr
..as long as it has BASS and it's LOUD!
irc.libera.chat >>> #kvr
- KVRAF
- 7865 posts since 12 Feb, 2006 from Helsinki, Finland
Actually you got exp() per diode (or transistor in the transistor ladder; see Diode in Wikipedia for Shockley diode equation) and it's the diffential diode-pair that simplifies to tanh().ParadoxUn wrote:Just out of curiosity, why so many tanh's in Kunns filter? From what I understand of transistors, (this is diode, but connected to work in a similar way?) (Btw some places I read that the 303 uses transistors in the filters aswell..??)
There is control voltage for the cutoff. There is none for the feedback (there is a real potentiometer for the feedback path instead), though there are versions of various ladders that do have control voltage for feedback too. It basically involves a VCA in the feedback path (or a multiply for the feedback signal in the simple discretisations).
Conceptually, you need a control voltage (?) for the feedback, how's this done. Would that result in tanh(buf*amount), is that why there's so many of them(?).
Actually one capacitor and one resistor. The trick is that from the point of view of the differential signal (ie the difference of voltages on the two sides of the capacitors) the transistor pair acts as a current controlled resistor (with the current being controlled by the control voltage). Since the signal itself is carried differentially, this control current is pretty much "invisible" as far as the signal itself is concerned.Each places where there is some multiplication, results in nonlinear distortion, depending on the transistor/diode.
So, how many transistors for a one pole? two? three?
The beauty of the original Moog design is that the transistors also act as buffers, so you really need 1 cap + 2 transistors per stage (and 2 more transistors to feed the thing). Various people (to dodge Moog's patents) wired the transistors as diodes (or just used real diodes) though. The diode pair's still work for the purpose of controlling the "resistances" but unfortunately you lose the buffering. Obviously the resulting transfer function is pretty much totally different, so it doesn't sound the same anymore (with or without consideration for what the non-linearities do to the sound).
The "plussing" is really Euler integration of the differential voltage over the caps, something like:
So, for instance, a tanh for each transistor.
buf = tanh(buf * (1-cut)) + tanh(in * cut)
Where's the plussing going on, inside a transistor?
Arg, this is turning to gibberish. Anyone who feel like correcting it is very welcome.
newVoltage = oldVoltage + differentialCurrentIn - differentialCurrentOut
The total current through a transistor pair is directly controlled by the cutoff CV (and is the same for all stages) and acts essentially as a voltage controlled resistance for the differential signal.
There is a few full derivations of this stuff around the web if you care for more, and a quick sketch or two somewhere in the forum archives too.
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- KVRAF
- 3162 posts since 13 Jun, 2004
i also think your filter sounds very nice; any chance of a little pluginParadoxUn wrote:I am very pleased with the sound of my filter, which is now a generic filter, with a "nobassloss" tweak, and clipping in the feedback path.
I think I am stopping there.
With an approximate accent feature, it sounds like this: http://www.paradoxuncreated.com/tmp/nobassloss.wav
The "nobassloss" tweak removes the attenuation from resonance tuning, and makes a completely perfect sweep over the frequency range, also due to the clipping in the feedback path.
Peace.
to play around with?
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- Banned
- 106 posts since 21 Nov, 2010
The synth I am working on won't be ready for some time. And since it is just an experimental plugin I use to test DSP on, that time might be forever. However, someone might implement nobassloss and clipping in the feedback path filter into open 303. ?
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- KVRAF
- 3162 posts since 13 Jun, 2004
ahem, well...(cough) y'know, if you feel like releasing
a rrruff version, lol...i like the sound of this.
(forever?)
the loss of volume with res' was discussed at some point,
and was deemed to be 'authentic'.
a rrruff version, lol...i like the sound of this.
(forever?)
the loss of volume with res' was discussed at some point,
and was deemed to be 'authentic'.
- KVRAF
- 2554 posts since 4 Sep, 2006 from 127.0.0.1
yes, the 303 filter looses _alot_ of it's output gain when you increase the resonance (even a little)
there is in fact something that looks like a "hack" in the circuit
the resonance pot is dual
the designers probably put an additional gain "boost" - when you increase the resonance, more feedback is fed to the filter, but also more of the output (via an additional path) is also mixed to the VCA (iirc see C22 C21 and how they are connected around the resonance pot)
there is in fact something that looks like a "hack" in the circuit
the resonance pot is dual
the designers probably put an additional gain "boost" - when you increase the resonance, more feedback is fed to the filter, but also more of the output (via an additional path) is also mixed to the VCA (iirc see C22 C21 and how they are connected around the resonance pot)
It doesn't matter how it sounds..
..as long as it has BASS and it's LOUD!
irc.libera.chat >>> #kvr
..as long as it has BASS and it's LOUD!
irc.libera.chat >>> #kvr
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- KVRAF
- 3162 posts since 13 Jun, 2004
antto, the venom is sounding very nice now!
totally different from beta2. c'mon: the people
need beta3, hahaha...
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and t'be fair, the x0xware could be trimmed down,
with stuff dropped, to fit on orig' cpu?
totally different from beta2. c'mon: the people
need beta3, hahaha...
-----------------------------------------------
and t'be fair, the x0xware could be trimmed down,
with stuff dropped, to fit on orig' cpu?