Selling VST2 after October 2018: Steinberg agreement

DSP, Plug-in and Host development discussion.
unevens
KVRer
3 posts since 26 Mar, 2012

Post Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:40 am

Hey aciddose, thank you for taking the time to explain that!

tony10000
KVRist
270 posts since 4 Aug, 2017

Re: Selling VST2 after October 2018: Steinberg agreement

Post Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:39 am


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aciddose
KVRAF
12129 posts since 7 Dec, 2004

Re: Selling VST2 after October 2018: Steinberg agreement

Post Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:01 pm

Another short point on copyright: there is a requirement that the work be in part "original" to qualify for copyright protection. For example I can take Beethoven's 9th and add some original elements and the resulting work would be protected. Not only the original elements but the combination with the derived elements would create a new original work.

Protected: rendition of "Tchaikovsky - Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy"
(in this case the original element is 100% the performance and "sounds", so the recording itself is protected while another synthesized performance even if similar would not be infringing.)
https://soundcloud.com/xhip/megamonopoly

So both would be protected: the same sort of combination of elements even if the combination were from different sources. That stuff is United States case-law and gets pretty complicated due to the large number of cases which sometimes end up somewhat contradictory. If I did a Beethoven dubstep with a specific melody it would mean you couldn't just take some Mozart dubstep and use a similar melody without potentially infringing.

That's the counter-example to demonstrate that unoriginal or derivative works are not protected on their own.

What makes a work "art" is that choice is involved. There are many if not an infinite number of potential ways to express an idea. The idea itself is not protected but the unique and original choices made to render that idea into a concrete medium are protected.

This is why when you do not have a choice to make the work is not protected. For example in programming we have the common "hello world".

Some variations:
  • printf("Hello World!\n");
  • puts("helloworld");
  • const char *str = "greetings worldo"; for (int i = 0; str(i); i++) { putchar(str(i)); } putchar('\n');
None of those variations are protected due to not meeting the threshold for originality.

We can see that there are a number of equivalent choices available. Due to the fact these are all equivalent they are not to be considered creative expression at all. We could easily replace all the variations with the same method and get identical output.
  • printf("Hello World!\n");
  • printf("helloworld\n");
  • printf("greetings worldo\n");
We've eliminated any element of creative expression or originality. We no longer need to argue about how to define the threshold for originality with regard to the program code which is identical. The only unique element is now the content of the string which is again a "false choice" also known as a "Hobson's Choice". All these variations have identical results, so the only real choice is either to choose arbitrarily (act) or not to choose (not to act).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobson%27s_choice
  • printf("Hello world.\n");
  • printf("Hello world.\n");
  • printf("Hello world.\n");
Likewise in an interface like VST there is only one possible expression that would make the interface function correctly. This means that all variations can be reduced to this single identical outcome which renders the work not eligible for copyright protection.
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.

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BlitBit
KVRist
215 posts since 28 Nov, 2013 from Germany

Re: Selling VST2 after October 2018: Steinberg agreement

Post Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:51 pm

tony10000 wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:36 am
Steinberg has issued DCMA takedown notices to everyone who had posted the VST2 SDK on Github: https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/mas ... einberg.md
Ironically this posted link by Steinberg is likely the best entry point to get the VST2 headers from github if you do not have them. Am I somehow missing the point of DCMA takedowns on git repositories?

Xenakios
KVRian
1191 posts since 9 Sep, 2005 from Oulu, Finland

Re: Selling VST2 after October 2018: Steinberg agreement

Post Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:31 am

BlitBit wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:51 pm
Am I somehow missing the point of DCMA takedowns on git repositories?
If you don't have the license signed by Steinberg, you are not allowed to distribute products built with those anyway...So it's pointless to obtain the VST2 header/SDK files (official or reverse engineered) at this point. (Unless you want to risk having to deal with Steinberg via the legal system.)
Last edited by Xenakios on Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

Xenakios
KVRian
1191 posts since 9 Sep, 2005 from Oulu, Finland

Re: Selling VST2 after October 2018: Steinberg agreement

Post Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:32 am

I got the VST2 license back signed by Steinberg today... :o

quikquak
KVRian
502 posts since 6 Aug, 2005 from England

Re: Selling VST2 after October 2018: Steinberg agreement

Post Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:14 am

Xenakios wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:32 am
I got the VST2 license back signed by Steinberg today... :o
Oh gosh. Did you get an apology?

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discoDSP
KVRAF
4037 posts since 18 Jul, 2002 from Spain, Europe

Re: Selling VST2 after October 2018: Steinberg agreement

Post Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:28 am

Xenakios wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:32 am
I got the VST2 license back signed by Steinberg today... :o
Image

Goal accomplished :)

MBO
KVRist
49 posts since 18 Mar, 2018

Re: Selling VST2 after October 2018: Steinberg agreement

Post Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:11 am

Xenakios wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:32 am
I got the VST2 license back signed by Steinberg today... :o
I've just got mine too. Finally.

Xenakios
KVRian
1191 posts since 9 Sep, 2005 from Oulu, Finland

Re: Selling VST2 after October 2018: Steinberg agreement

Post Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:39 am

MBO wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:11 am
I've just got mine too. Finally.
A competition, who gets it last? :lol:

midi_transmission
KVRist
263 posts since 13 Feb, 2013

Re: Selling VST2 after October 2018: Steinberg agreement

Post Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:14 pm

I always liked Steinberg, but after this my opinion about them is pretty low. I hope that they are aware how people from the outside judge them after this move. You cooperate in 2018. Even Microsoft does it now. Negative advertisement galore.

Really hoping that the VST standard will be overtaken by some other open source format in the near future.

tony10000
KVRist
270 posts since 4 Aug, 2017

Re: Selling VST2 after October 2018: Steinberg agreement

Post Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:42 pm

JUCE is working on their new SOUL initiative and that seems promising. For the rest of us, there is always Propellerhead REs!

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WilliamK
KVRAF
4487 posts since 12 Jun, 2001 from Wusik Dot Com

Re: Selling VST2 after October 2018: Steinberg agreement

Post Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:31 am

midi_transmission wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:14 pm
I always liked Steinberg, but after this my opinion about them is pretty low. I hope that they are aware how people from the outside judge them after this move. You cooperate in 2018. Even Microsoft does it now. Negative advertisement galore.

Really hoping that the VST standard will be overtaken by some other open source format in the near future.
+1

quikquak
KVRian
502 posts since 6 Aug, 2005 from England

Re: Selling VST2 after October 2018: Steinberg agreement

Post Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:26 pm

WilliamK wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:31 am
midi_transmission wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:14 pm
I always liked Steinberg, but after this my opinion about them is pretty low. I hope that they are aware how people from the outside judge them after this move. You cooperate in 2018. Even Microsoft does it now. Negative advertisement galore.

Really hoping that the VST standard will be overtaken by some other open source format in the near future.
+1
++
It makes business sense to allow people to use it where they want. Perhaps not to have too many fingers in the pie with open source though.

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vortico
KVRist
252 posts since 19 Jul, 2008

Re: Selling VST2 after October 2018: Steinberg agreement

Post Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:28 pm

midi_transmission wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:14 pm
Really hoping that the VST standard will be overtaken by some other open source format in the near future.
Well, the issue is certainly not the lack of open-source audio plugin standards. http://lv2plug.in/ and https://free-audio.github.io/clap/ are fine, but I bet they haven't even crossed most developers' minds, since the number of users is so low.
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