Hello.
I'm having a couple of issues with the way NKS is implemented for Presswerk.
The first thing is that the knob assignments don't respond to link mode. So even if I have link mode engaged, the knob assigned to threshold 1 (just as an example) only affects the threshold on channel 1. If I tweak the threshold directly on the GUI it works just fine. With link mode engaged threshold 1 and 2 move in concert. But the knob assignments seem to be hardwired to the individual channels.
Since 90% of the time I am using Presswerk in linked stereo mode, this makes the NKS implementation almost useless for me.
The other issue is that when I change views on the GUI it resets my custom NKS mappings. In general I like to customize my knob assignments and save them as user presets in Komplete Kontrol and this is the first time I've seen a plugin do this. Maybe this is just a general NKS problem (don't get me started) and is a result of the fact that Presswerk has separate factory mappings for each view type that change as you change the view. So far I have not come across another plugin that has that feature and maybe that kind of dynamic switching will always reset custom mappings. I really don't know.
Kind of strange but certainly not as much of a showstopper as the previously mentioned problem.
Anyway, maybe someone can let me in on some workaround to either of these issues. If not, I guess addressing them can be considered a feature request.
Thanks,
-Daniel
Presswerk NKS Implementation
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 937 posts since 31 May, 2017
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- u-he
- 28065 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
The link problem is not really solvable - it's a common issue also with host automation and MIDI controllers. Our link feature uses a special UI widget which controls two (or even more) parameters at once. This way we can have offsets between those two parameters and preserve their relative difference. NKS (and MIDI learn and...) maps one parameter to one control. It can not control two independent parameters.
There is a possible workaround: In the software we can check if link is enabled, then dynamically adjust the linked parameter. While this is possible, it is against any plug-in specification. We have tentatively tried the concept in the past, but we reverted all efforts in this direction due to erratic behaviour in many situation. I can discuss trying this again, but I think our support team would be very angry with me if support was flooded with messages from upset people who loose their work due to this.
Example: You link two parameters A and B, A is at 0%, B is at 50%. Now you automate just A in your project and you let it go from 0% to 100% over a few bars. At the end, both A and B are at 100%. A has caught up with B. When you now go back in your project to wherever A was 0%, the software has no choice other than set B to 0% as well. Thus, you lose the ability to move both parameters relative to each other. The point is: Only *independent* automation of both parameters preserves relative editing.
There is another possible workaround: We could make all Ch2 parameters behave like offsets to Ch1. In that case Presswerk would always be linked and can never be unlinked. This would make editing of Ch2 nearly impossible unless we do a full redesign where Channel 2 is always visible with Channel 1.
Yet another workaround is Macro Controls. We could add 8 additional knobs like we did in Hive, which could map to multiple parameters while preserving relative settings. This clashes with Presswerk's concept of the Easy Views. It would have to be done so that the macro page becomes an easy view in itself, and the macros are only available in that view. I don't think this is a viable concept though, I think there are too many trade-offs.
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Regarding NKS mapping of controls: AFAIK we are the first and maybe still the only company which implements NKS beyond "providing NKS ready factory presets". Our plug-ins can save NKS directly out of the preset browser and they can dynamically map parameters. So that not only factory presets just work, but also all presets people do themselves or which they get from somewhere else.
We found it important that, if someone switches a view in Presswerk, the NKS mapping adjusts to that view. Not just because we think this is expected behaviour (and not just "because we can"), but also because it would be far too confusing to have parameters presented on the NKS device which do not apply - do nothing, that is - in the current setting.
There is a possible workaround: In the software we can check if link is enabled, then dynamically adjust the linked parameter. While this is possible, it is against any plug-in specification. We have tentatively tried the concept in the past, but we reverted all efforts in this direction due to erratic behaviour in many situation. I can discuss trying this again, but I think our support team would be very angry with me if support was flooded with messages from upset people who loose their work due to this.
Example: You link two parameters A and B, A is at 0%, B is at 50%. Now you automate just A in your project and you let it go from 0% to 100% over a few bars. At the end, both A and B are at 100%. A has caught up with B. When you now go back in your project to wherever A was 0%, the software has no choice other than set B to 0% as well. Thus, you lose the ability to move both parameters relative to each other. The point is: Only *independent* automation of both parameters preserves relative editing.
There is another possible workaround: We could make all Ch2 parameters behave like offsets to Ch1. In that case Presswerk would always be linked and can never be unlinked. This would make editing of Ch2 nearly impossible unless we do a full redesign where Channel 2 is always visible with Channel 1.
Yet another workaround is Macro Controls. We could add 8 additional knobs like we did in Hive, which could map to multiple parameters while preserving relative settings. This clashes with Presswerk's concept of the Easy Views. It would have to be done so that the macro page becomes an easy view in itself, and the macros are only available in that view. I don't think this is a viable concept though, I think there are too many trade-offs.
#-----
Regarding NKS mapping of controls: AFAIK we are the first and maybe still the only company which implements NKS beyond "providing NKS ready factory presets". Our plug-ins can save NKS directly out of the preset browser and they can dynamically map parameters. So that not only factory presets just work, but also all presets people do themselves or which they get from somewhere else.
We found it important that, if someone switches a view in Presswerk, the NKS mapping adjusts to that view. Not just because we think this is expected behaviour (and not just "because we can"), but also because it would be far too confusing to have parameters presented on the NKS device which do not apply - do nothing, that is - in the current setting.
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- u-he
- 28065 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
Also, yet another solution is an additional mode where all Ch2 settings are completely ignored. Thus, Ch2 would always have identical settings to Ch1. So far we opted against that because it would be confusing in respect to the linked editing feature.
It would probably have to be another dedicated view, similar to the standard view but without Channel 2 settings.
It would probably have to be another dedicated view, similar to the standard view but without Channel 2 settings.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 937 posts since 31 May, 2017
Thanks for the detailed replies. That is a tricky set of dilemmas.
It's too bad that KK/NKS doesn't allow for creating macros because if you could assign channel 1 and channel 2 parameters to the same knob then at least for my use case the problem would basically be solved (I can do that for example with Logic smart controls and it works just fine).
The main problem as I understand it is that there is no way to combine the channel controls while also maintaining their relative offsets across the entire range of both parameters.
I personally would be happy with a solution that doesn't maintain the offsets (ie something that is only useful for linked stereo with both channels always identical). I think that is a much more common use case anyway. Maintaining offsets with linked stereo controls is a more special case type of scenario in my opinion.
Maybe it would be possible to create some kind of macro controls that are not visible in the GUI but only available as automatable parameters that control both channels yet do not maintain offsets?
Ultimately that is what is happening with the logic smart controls so if there was a way to do that within the plugin itself then you could achieve what I am describing.
Also if it worked in a way that when one parameter exceeds the value for which the offset can be maintained (as in the A and B case you described where A goes past 50% and the offset collapses as A approaches 100%) then the offset is no longer maintained at that point (ie any compression in the offset is permanent) then that would also be fine in the vast majority of use cases. Lots of macro and linked controls work in just that way.
Anyway, I understand why none of this may be possible but if it where I think the best compromise would be to have a mode or under the hood macro or whatever that works for linked controls but that does not maintain offsets (either at all or at the extremes).
It's too bad that KK/NKS doesn't allow for creating macros because if you could assign channel 1 and channel 2 parameters to the same knob then at least for my use case the problem would basically be solved (I can do that for example with Logic smart controls and it works just fine).
The main problem as I understand it is that there is no way to combine the channel controls while also maintaining their relative offsets across the entire range of both parameters.
I personally would be happy with a solution that doesn't maintain the offsets (ie something that is only useful for linked stereo with both channels always identical). I think that is a much more common use case anyway. Maintaining offsets with linked stereo controls is a more special case type of scenario in my opinion.
Maybe it would be possible to create some kind of macro controls that are not visible in the GUI but only available as automatable parameters that control both channels yet do not maintain offsets?
Ultimately that is what is happening with the logic smart controls so if there was a way to do that within the plugin itself then you could achieve what I am describing.
Also if it worked in a way that when one parameter exceeds the value for which the offset can be maintained (as in the A and B case you described where A goes past 50% and the offset collapses as A approaches 100%) then the offset is no longer maintained at that point (ie any compression in the offset is permanent) then that would also be fine in the vast majority of use cases. Lots of macro and linked controls work in just that way.
Anyway, I understand why none of this may be possible but if it where I think the best compromise would be to have a mode or under the hood macro or whatever that works for linked controls but that does not maintain offsets (either at all or at the extremes).
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 937 posts since 31 May, 2017
Another thing that would be a good comprise (if it is possible within your UI framework) would be to limit the range of the individual channel parameters when there is an offset between them. So the max range for each channel would be the full range minus the offset amount (in the A and B example above, A could only go up to 50% until it bumps into the ceiling for B, and similarly B could not go below 50%).
I was just mapping the Waves Abbey Road Chambers in Komplete Kontrol and that is the way the linked stereo delay parameters work there.
I know that's a very obvious idea and that it's not a perfect solution but I would certainly rather have things work that way rather than always being forced to use unlinked stereo.
I was just mapping the Waves Abbey Road Chambers in Komplete Kontrol and that is the way the linked stereo delay parameters work there.
I know that's a very obvious idea and that it's not a perfect solution but I would certainly rather have things work that way rather than always being forced to use unlinked stereo.
