Tech Preview: Hive Wavetables

[KBSoundSmith]

I think it's been touched upon but perhaps not directly discussed: I'm curious to learn why a certain class of WT FX are not featured in Hive 2. Sometimes these FX are referred to as Warp, Morph or Bend modes.

I ask because these FX types show up in several other synthesizers with WT oscillators, so I wonder why Hive 2 doesn't feature them too. Not critiquing, just curious.

Just to add, from a user's perspective: that "missing" functionality isn't a big deal to me. I say this for two reasons: 1) I have Serum and can use that for those type of sounds/functionality, and/or 2) I can render the Osc Warp in Serum, save the result as a wavetable, then import the wavetable (with the baked-in warp) into Hive. Boom, I now have warping in Hive. Takes no time. (I'm sure other users can math out those behaviors in a .uhm script, but for users like me who are currently rusty on math, the options I listed above still make it a non-issue.)

An additional benefit is that if I keep the size of tables modest (example, two wavetables of 128 frames each), I can combine them into one larger wavetable, including several different instances of warping. Then with Hive's multi-dimensional scanning, I can crossfade among multiple warping modes with the XY pad. I've attached a patch and wavetable as an example.

[Dim Vision]

That's an interesting approach to keep in mind. Thanks for taking the time to demonstrate and share it.

However, since your approach requires multiple steps, special knowledge and two synthesizers it's a bit of a workaround (even if I happened to own a Serum license), especially when it achieves similar, but not identical results to built-in osc FX controls. It doesn't simply entail internal modulation, such as that which one can implement when seeking something akin to an AHDSR envelope. Even in workarounds involving internal modulation, slots are expended in the process, which are often desired for use elsewhere.

Given that you have sought out a method to achieve something similar to osc FX using your programming knowledge and the tools at your disposal, it would appear that these FX have some value to you. That's what I was really curious about. How people regarded their value and utility, and why these FX perhaps didn't possess sufficient value and utility for inclusion in Hive 2 when several creators of other WT synths of the day decided otherwise.

Thanks again for sharing.

[Ranoka]

Just to add, from a user's perspective: that "missing" functionality isn't a big deal to me. I say this for two reasons: 1) I have Serum and can use that for those type of sounds/functionality, and/or 2) I can render the Osc Warp in Serum, save the result as a wavetable, then import the wavetable (with the baked-in warp) into Hive. Boom, I now have warping in Hive. Takes no time. (I'm sure other users can math out those behaviors in a .uhm script, but for users like me who are currently rusty on math, the options I listed above still make it a non-issue.)

An additional benefit is that if I keep the size of tables modest (example, two wavetables of 128 frames each), I can combine them into one larger wavetable, including several different instances of warping. Then with Hive's multi-dimensional scanning, I can crossfade among multiple warping modes with the XY pad. I've attached a patch and wavetable as an example.

Thanks for sharing that wavetable and preset, it's a great demonstration of setting these type of effect up without them being featured in Hive.
The 2D wavetables and smooth interpolation pretty much negates the need for the warp modes to be included directly in Hive because the effect can be replicated with the right wavetable.

Also, you can do with 1 2D wavetable osc in Hive what requires both oscs in Serum. And you can double that up in Hive by having a different wavetable in the 2nd osc.

One thing we do miss is the crossmod between oscs, but I'm not sure if we really need it in Hive (I wouldn't say no if it was added though ).
As much as I like FM/PD, if I want to get deep and dirty I should switch to a dedicated FM synth like FM8 or Bazille. Otherwise a good FM type wavetable in Hive should be enough.

[Ranoka]

it would appear that these FX have some value to you. That's what I was really curious about. How people regarded their value and utility, and why these FX perhaps didn't possess sufficient value and utility for inclusion in Hive 2 when several creators of other WT synths of the day decided otherwise. I suspected that they could arguably he dispensed with.

How much use people get out of warp modes would likely depend on the type of sound design they're doing - genres that typically favour synths like Massive and Serum such as dubstep and complextro that tend to have the more aggressive electronic sounds.

If those are the sort of sounds they're after, they're likely already using Massive and Serum.

Going back to Hive, once someone has made a decent bunch of these wavetables, then they can grab one of the ones they like and use that. You don't necessarily need to make a new wavetable each time.

For the aggressive sounds Hive could probably do with a comb filter, and some other creative filters like the reverb filter(!), ringmod filter, flanger filter, formant filter and screamer filter (etc) in Serum.

Also the Hyper/Dimension and 3 band compressor effects, and osc crossmod, and noise sampler... but then we're basically asking for Serum...

[Dim Vision]

How much use people get out of warp modes would likely depend on the type of sound design they're doing - genres that typically favour synths like Massive and Serum such as dubstep and complextro that tend to have the more aggressive electronic sounds.

If those are the sort of sounds they're after, they're likely already using Massive and Serum.

Going back to Hive, once someone has made a decent bunch of these wavetables, then they can grab one of the ones they like and use that. You don't necessarily need to make a new wavetable each time.

For the aggressive sounds Hive could probably do with a comb filter, and some other creative filters like the reverb filter(!), ringmod filter, flanger filter, formant filter and screamer filter (etc) in Serum.

Also the Hyper/Dimension and 3 band compressor effects, and osc crossmod, and noise sampler... but then we're basically asking for Serum...

That's good to know. I tend not to favour aggressive sounds, so it seems like I wouldn't really benefit from most of the osc FX.

I'm certainly not asking for all these bells and whistles. I simply found it noteworthy that osc FX doesn't feature in Hive 2 when they seem to be a common feature in other WT synths, even in a synth with a comparatively leaner feature offering such as Ableton Wavetable. I now have a much better understanding of why they aren't included in Hive 2.

Perhaps part of the motivation to include osc FX in other WT synths is that it makes the most of the WT visualizers most of these synths have. It looks impressive and enhances the appeal of the synth.

[KBSoundSmith]

Just to add, from a user's perspective: that "missing" functionality isn't a big deal to me. I say this for two reasons: 1) I have Serum and can use that for those type of sounds/functionality, and/or 2) I can render the Osc Warp in Serum, save the result as a wavetable, then import the wavetable (with the baked-in warp) into Hive. Boom, I now have warping in Hive. Takes no time. (I'm sure other users can math out those behaviors in a .uhm script, but for users like me who are currently rusty on math, the options I listed above still make it a non-issue.)

An additional benefit is that if I keep the size of tables modest (example, two wavetables of 128 frames each), I can combine them into one larger wavetable, including several different instances of warping. Then with Hive's multi-dimensional scanning, I can crossfade among multiple warping modes with the XY pad. I've attached a patch and wavetable as an example.

Thanks for sharing that wavetable and preset, it's a great demonstration of setting these type of effect up without them being featured in Hive.
The 2D wavetables and smooth interpolation pretty much negates the need for the warp modes to be included directly in Hive because the effect can be replicated with the right wavetable.

Also, you can do with 1 2D wavetable osc in Hive what requires both oscs in Serum. And you can double that up in Hive by having a different wavetable in the 2nd osc.

One thing we do miss is the crossmod between oscs, but I'm not sure if we really need it in Hive (I wouldn't say no if it was added though ).
As much as I like FM/PD, if I want to get deep and dirty I should switch to a dedicated FM synth like FM8 or Bazille. Otherwise a good FM type wavetable in Hive should be enough.

Not a problem.

FWIW, a few notes: I left the interpolation on "Crossfade" so that the waveform would visually appear the same way as if one were looking at it in Serum. The best audible are from "Zero Phase" interpolation on this specific preset, IMO (although it is subtly different sounding).

Also, I forgot to include the two component wavetables which make up the larger wavetable. I'll attach them here, for the sake of being complete.

Another note is that both wavetables use 128 frames, which combine into the larger for 256 frames, the maximum allowed (I'll also include 256 frame tables for comparison). I did not experiment to see how few frames I could get away with. I imagine that some waveforms will perform more desirably with fewer frames per table, others more, etc (especially depending upon the type of interpolation). Worth experimenting with on a case-by-case basis.

[KBSoundSmith]

That's an interesting approach to keep in mind. Thanks for taking the time to demonstrate and share it.

However, since your approach requires multiple steps, special knowledge and two synthesizers it's a bit of a workaround (even if I happened to own a Serum license), especially when it achieves similar, but not identical results to built-in osc FX controls. It doesn't simply entail internal modulation, such as that which one can implement when seeking something akin to an AHDSR envelope. Even in workarounds involving internal modulation, slots are expended in the process, which are often desired for use elsewhere.

Given that you have sought out a method to achieve something similar to osc FX using your programming knowledge and the tools at your disposal, it would appear that these FX have some value to you. That's what I was really curious about. How people regarded their value and utility, and why these FX perhaps didn't possess sufficient value and utility for inclusion in Hive 2 when several creators of other WT synths of the day decided otherwise.

Thanks again for sharing.

No problem, happy to share.

I get that this all may seem troublesome, compared to "just" including a knob. But Hive's implementation cuts out redundancy while also adding flexibility (if at the expense of usability for those who aren't diving into WT construction). And as Ranoka mentioned, many people who want that "morph" knob probably already have something like Massive, Serum... so Hive actually diversifies their overall options, if they take advantage of its differences. (BTW, the end result can be made to be more identical).

As for why I did this... mainly because people keep asking about morphing, so I thought I'd demonstrate . The other reason is purely for my own education -- since I know what Serum's morphing output should look/sound like, both directly from the morph knob or rendered into a table, I can use it as a stable reference point for learning Hive's implementation and seeing how I can make things unique within its environment. I'm not necessarily married to morphing, per se (although I try to take advantage of whatever is available to me). And again, if I want easy Osc FX, I do have other synths. It's about learning what my options are.

[Dim Vision]

No problem, happy to share.

I get that this all may seem troublesome, compared to "just" including a knob. But Hive's implementation cuts out redundancy while also adding flexibility (if at the expense of usability for those who aren't diving into WT construction). And as Ranoka mentioned, many people who want that "morph" knob probably already have something like Massive, Serum... so Hive actually diversifies their overall options, if they take advantage of its differences. (BTW, the end result can be made to be more identical).

As for why I did this... mainly because people keep asking about morphing, so I thought I'd demonstrate . The other reason is purely for my own education -- since I know what Serum's morphing output should look/sound like, both directly from the morph knob or rendered into a table, I can use it as a stable reference point for learning Hive's implementation and seeing how I can make things unique within its environment. I'm not necessarily married to morphing, per se (although I try to take advantage of whatever is available to me). And again, if I want easy Osc FX, I do have other synths. It's about learning what my options are.

Your input is much appreciated, and I'm glad our questions have afforded you opportunities to broaden your own understanding of Hive's capabilities. We all benefit in the end.

[Urs]

I will add that, ever since Hive came out and even more so since we added Wavetables, people have dropped us quite a few feature requests. All of these are valid requests, but if we follow up on them we don't have Hive anymore. I'd say, the number of knobs and drop downs would roughly double. It would destroy exactly the thing why people are asking for these features: To have them within Hive's workflow, instead of the heavily tabbed one elsewhere. But we would have to heavily tab Hive then.

Hence, my stance remains to *carefully* add features which add a wide range of use. Some kind of OscFX *might* be in it at some point, and so does a parallel fx routing option or even a formant mode. But I don't see things like attack spikes, continuous unison blend, hold stages, wavetable editors, multiband compression and esoteric filters in this category. We need to avoid anything that will seem orphaned in most use cases.

[Forgotten]

if we follow up on them we don't have Hive anymore

That would be a shame - to improve the workflow with minor enhancements is good, but to change it significantly would not be a good thing to happen. As you say, it wouldn't be Hive anymore if all the changes in this thread are implemented.

[cytospur]

Here's a UHM script that does something similar to BEND- in Serum:

Code: Select all

Info "MH Bend-\nBy Mark Holt\n"

NumFrames=32

Wave target=aux1 "2*pi*(0.5+(0.5*(sign(phase-0.5)*abs((2*phase-1)%1)^sqrt(63*table+1))))"	//phase bend
Wave target=aux2 "2*pi*phase" //normal phase

Wave "sin(aux1+1*sin(2*aux1+4*sin(3*aux1)))"

Export Source=main "MH Bend01.wav"

aux1 is the bit that does the phase bending. You can replace any, but not all, of the aux1 entries with aux2 (normal phase ramp) to get different effects. Change the 63 value at the end of the aux1 definition to get different ranges of bending.

Similarly, this is a script for BEND+ like modulation:

Code: Select all

Info "MH Bend+\nBy Mark Holt\n"

NumFrames=32

Wave target=aux1 "2*pi*(0.5+(0.5*(sign(phase-0.5)*abs((2*phase-1)%1)^(1/(7*table^4+1)))))"	//phase bend
Wave target=aux2 "2*pi*phase" //normal phase

Wave "sin(aux1+1*sin(2*aux1+4*sin(3*aux1)))"

Export Source=main "MH Bend02.wav"

I'm sure these can be tweaked to get a better transition through the wavetable.

And then finally, an attempt at BEND-/+ using two separate tables within the one table:

Code: Select all

Info "MH Bend+/-\nBy Mark Holt\nSet number of tables to 2\n"

NumFrames=64

Wave target=aux2 "2*pi*phase" //normal phase
Wave target=aux1 "2*pi*(0.5+(0.5*(sign(phase-0.5)*abs((2*phase-1)%1)^sqrt(63*table+1))))"	//phase bend-
Wave start=0 end=31 "sin(aux1+1*sin(2*aux1+4*sin(3*aux1)))"

Wave target=aux1 "2*pi*(0.5+(0.5*(sign(phase-0.5)*abs((2*phase-1)%1)^(1/(7*table^8+1)))))"	//phase bend+
Wave start=32 end=63 "sin(aux1+1*sin(2*aux1+4*sin(3*aux1)))"

Export Source=main "MH Bend03.wav"

These are all guesses on the maths behind what Serum does, but are hopefully of use to someone that would like to do something similar.

[cytospur]

And something that Serum can't do. Simultaneous waveshaping and blending! Here a simple waveform is passed through another waveform acting as a waveshaper. The waveshaper is the waveform that is being 'bent'.

Code: Select all

Info "MH Waveshaping Bend+/-\nBy Mark Holt\nSet tables to 2"

NumFrames=256

Wave target=aux2 "2*pi*phase" //normal phase
Wave target=aux1 "2*pi*(0.5+(0.5*(sign(phase-0.5)*abs((2*phase-1)%1)^sqrt(63*table+1))))"	//phase bend-
Wave start=0 end=127 "sin(2*aux1+0.5*sin(3*aux1+2*sin(4*aux1)))"

Wave target=aux1 "2*pi*(0.5+(0.5*(sign(phase-0.5)*abs((2*phase-1)%1)^(1/(2*table^8+1)))))"	//phase bend+
Wave start=128 end=255 "sin(2*aux1+0.5*sin(3*aux1+2*sin(4*aux1)))"

//Waveshaping Input - amplitudes should add up to 1 or less
Wave target=aux1 "0.6*sin(2*aux2)+0.4*sin(3*aux2)"

//Waveshaping Output
Wave "main_fi(frame,1024*(aux1+1))"

Spectrum lowest=0 highest=0 "0"
Normalize Metric=peak Base=each

Export Source=main "MH BendWS.wav"

[cytospur]

DP

[Urs]

more

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Big thanks to Mark Holt. Amazing stuff!