MPE solutions (Diva etc.)

[himalaya]

Well, I've confused the issue with my answers and have stated something that is incorrect. Apologies.
It is indeed not possible to play a chord and solo on top with an effect without affecting the chord. So yes, you are correct and in this regard this is all like using a pedal.

However!
I should have explained that the FX modes allow to control how the effects can be triggered with 5D which allow us to do other tricks like:

1. play a chord and slide up with the top finger to hear the effect. But then, do the same slide gesture with the finger holding the middle note in the chord, and the effect will not be heard. The same will happen with the bottom note. This is if we select the 'HighestNotes' FX trigger mode.

Then, the same can be done with the Lowest and Most Recent Notes options.

So, these modes are still very practical, since if I have effects and some other synthesis parameters (eg: filter cutoff) assigned to SLIDE (as an example), then I can still use SLIDE to trigger the filter cutoff and not trigger any effects.

However, granted, this is not a solution to have proper poly-effect expression.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Hopefully not too OT, and probably well known here, but I did find the following video on Lift helpful. Wonder why I never came across this series before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6YL4KGuxlE

Anyway, from the looks of it, she seems to be quickly pressing down before lifting up, which if part of the technique of Lift, then aren't you also going to run into modulating the Pressure before you even get to modulate the Lift? I guess that's just part of the technique of mastering Lift, but I'd think you'd be able to use Lift without first modulating pressure. But I guess that's just part of the charm of the Rise.

Also, how does one edit Lift in the DAW? Is there a Lift CC? If so, which one?

[pdxindy]

However!
I should have explained that the FX modes allow to control how the effects can be triggered with 5D which allow us to do other tricks like:

1. play a chord and slide up with the top finger to hear the effect. But then, do the same slide gesture with the finger holding the middle note in the chord, and the effect will not be heard. The same will happen with the bottom note. This is if we select the 'HighestNotes' FX trigger mode.

Then, the same can be done with the Lowest and Most Recent Notes options.

So, these modes are still very practical, since if I have effects and some other synthesis parameters (eg: filter cutoff) assigned to SLIDE (as an example), then I can still use SLIDE to trigger the filter cutoff and not trigger any effects.

However, granted, this is not a solution to have proper poly-effect expression.

Options are good... of course those options do not allow me to do something I cannot just do with the pedal. However, it is a different workflow and some people might prefer one or the other approach.

Even if I don't feel excitement about that particular use case, I'm happy to see developers trying different things!

[pdxindy]

Also, how does one edit Lift in the DAW? Is there a Lift CC? If so, which one?

Bitwig shows Release Velocity in the Inspector when you select a note... but it does not have a dedicated edit channel like for velocity or timbre. So you can edit each note individually or you can use the histogram to raise or lower all notes, spread the range or add chaos (noise).

Haven't checked Logic

[himalaya]

Anyway, from the looks of it, she seems to be quickly pressing down before lifting up, which if part of the technique of Lift, then aren't you also going to run into modulating the Pressure before you even get to modulate the Lift? I guess that's just part of the technique of mastering Lift, but I'd think you'd be able to use Lift without first modulating pressure. But I guess that's just part of the charm of the Rise.

Yes, that's exactly it: to hear LIFT on most presets you need to perform what I call a quick 'press&release' gesture. And yes, by doing so, you inadvertently trigger the PRESS dimension.

But here is the rub: it does not need to be like that. It's only like that since we program a lot of the presets in this way. So, you can have LIFT and play with it without modulating pressure at the same time. However, if the patch is set up in this way, so that you get to play with LIFT without modulating PRESS, then LIFT may get in the way of your normal playing, that is, it will trigger when you don't want it to be triggered. The idea is to have LIFT as a controllable dimension/sound, but if you hear it all the time, it's not much of a controllable gesture....so that's why a lot of the presets are programmed in a specific way, with a specific expression curve which 'pushes' LIFT slightly back, as it were, and in order to hear it, we need to perform that quick 'press&release' gesture.

So there are conditions dictating how it's all programmed, conditions which depend on what you want to achieve, what the preset demands. This is one of the reasons why properly designed MPE/5D presets can not be auditioned quickly like some people do: clicking thorough the presets, one by one, while the track is playing, hearing them momentarily, since this way, we will never hear what the patch is actually doing on all dimensions.

I always fear that 5D presets can end up being the most misunderstood....

So, to summarise:
A. LIFT can be programmed so that it works fully independently from PRESS
B. but in reality it needs to be programmed with a deep exponential expression curve to delay its effect on the sound, and thus to trigger it, we briefly modulate PRESS at the same time.

[liquidsn]

Still can't get DIVA to recognize Y axis 'slide' for Seaboard Block in BITWIG.

Followed : https://rolisupport.freshdesk.com/suppo ... rise-grand
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=510620
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj_peBacSuE

Glide/aftertouch all works. Just the Y axis doesn't .
Serum/Equator/etc all work as expected.

Can anyone give me a dummy way to get it working in BitWig?

[liquidsn]

Figured it out. No need to do any of the above videos.

BITWIG Device DIVA : MPE 'ON'
add 'EXPRESSIONS' modulation onto Diva Device.

Timb = Slide
Vel = velocity
Pres = aftertouch/pressure
Rel = release of key.

It will even light up the little icon when you do the action.
Remember that It assigns in Bi-Polar. So if you have it on absolute make sure your cutoff knob is higher if you assign it to slide.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Those instructions are old and don't reflect the latest Diva updates which made it more MPE friendly.

1. Make sure you're using the latest Diva update
2. Open the Preferences in Diva
3. You'll see settings for "Control A" and "Control B"
4. The Y axis in Roli corresponds to CC74 - set either Control A or B to CC74 in the Diva preferences
5. Now assign Ctrl A (or B - whichever you assigned to CC74) to modulate filter cutoff

You should now have polyphonic control of the filter cutoff by moving your finger along the Y axis of your Roli.

[liquidsn]

Those instructions are old and don't reflect the latest Diva updates which made it more MPE friendly.

1. Make sure you're using the latest Diva update
2. Open the Preferences in Diva
3. You'll see settings for "Control A" and "Control B"
4. The Y axis in Roli corresponds to CC74 - set either Control A or B to CC74 in the Diva preferences
5. Now assign Ctrl A (or B - whichever you assigned to CC74) to modulate filter cutoff

You should now have polyphonic control of the filter cutoff by moving your finger along the Y axis of your Roli.

Yeah, I tried that. It didn't work. I put both Ctrl A & B on CC74. Don't know why Diva isn't registering sliding on my Roli. I even experimented changing Roli Y Axis to CC 1 (mod) but it didn't respond.

Should the Roli Settings be set to MPE or Multichannel? Anyways, I tried a bunch of different combinations to no avail.

Seems the only way is to use Expression mod in Bitwig to change things in Diva.

Would love to figure out why.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

I'm not a Bitwig user so can't be of too much help but are you using VST3 or VST2? If VST3, I'd definitely try it in VST2 to see if that clears it up?

[liquidsn]

I'm not a Bitwig user so can't be of too much help but are you using VST3 or VST2? If VST3, I'd definitely try it in VST2 to see if that clears it up?

Welp you are right.

VST2 Diva works as described with CONTROL A & B to CC 74.
Weird that VST3 Diva doesn't work. I'll send U-he a email to see if its a bug.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

I thought I read recently that their MPE wasn't working with VST3 but wasn't paying that much attention at the time. Hence the suggestion. Glad you got it figured out.

[pdxindy]

Yeah... the VST3 u-he synths don't currently work for MPE... it is a known issue and the devs are on it. In the meanwhile the answer is (as discovered) use VST2

[Ah_Dziz]

Release velocity (or LIFT) needs expression curves ( or mod mappers) in order to be usable. Without these curves whatever is assigned to LIFT will get in the way of your normal playing.

This may be what you want, but in the majority of cases it may not, since the idea is to 'awake' or 'express' LIFT as an accent and not as a constant sound that is audible on each note-off.

So, maybe it's a good thing that Diva does not support release-velocity, since people would find that without expression curves ( or mod-mappers) this 'dimension' is not of much practical use.

This is why I personally consider 'expression curves' to be essential in any MPE synth. These curves ought to be part of the official MPE spec.

I gotta say that “lift” or release velocity is one of the most useful parts of MPE for me. It can turn a staccato sound into a nice long modulated tail with a flick of the wrist. I find it especially useful for mono lines / bass lines, or lead lines. It gives a crazy amount of control to the spaces between the notes.

[himalaya]

LIFT can be extremely expressive but it's not for the novice. It requires skill to use. There are many examples of how LIFT can be used, and below is one such example, where I have FM assigned to LIFT. The actual FM 'ratio' can be controlled with LIFT and it can provide unexpected results, from tuned to clangorous timbres, all depending on the strength of velocity-note off, and here, I'm triggering max velocity so the resultant sound is in tune (LIFT shown from 1min):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_SMW9PCqYs